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  • jamiemalk
    replied
    1: 2nd ed revised was the best edition

    2: The anarchs are just teenagers who aren't mature enough to be in the Camarilla, driven enough to join the Sabbat or brave enough to be Autarkis

    3: V5 is just a high level Dementation effect that reality needs to get enough Wpr successes to disbelieve

    4: A lot of what people call overpowered is really because their Storyteller doesn't know how to just say "No"

    5: There should be sectioned off Powers and Paths. Everyone should not have access to everything.

    6: The WoD is unfair and so are it's rules, and that is perfect. You can't win, there are only pyrrhic victories in the face of crushing entropy.

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  • pang4
    replied
    Originally posted by Camilla View Post
    9. Sailor Moon would be awesome to feature as either potential antagonists or allies in a VTM game
    Care to elaborate? I smell something pretty interesting, and am intrigued.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kalendeer
    replied
    Originally posted by Camilla View Post

    13. The 1E-era characters in Chicago, Gary, and Milwaukee were all better than the Revised-era signature characters like Lucita, Theo Bell, Vykos, and the like
    Do you make an exception for Beckett? I like none of the signature characters except him, he's fun to use and mostly useless as a NPC anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Camilla
    replied
    Most of these opinions are things I have been saying for years, but since it's relevant to the thread, might as well list 'em.

    1. The Ravnos are awesome and one of my favorite clans, fuck the Week of Nightmares

    2. The metaplot was a mistake, I like Gangrel in the Camarilla and the Setites and Assamites in the Independent Clans

    3. Kuei-Jin were a mistake

    4. Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand was not that bad, although Elysium: The Elder Wars was better

    5. I never cared for the Gothic-Punk thing

    6. I enjoy trenchcoats, katanas, and "Supers With Fangs" unironically and generally enjoy it more than how most people do personal horror

    7. There are other ways of playing Vampire besides personal horror (though nothing wrong with personal horror either)

    8. 1E was the best edition, V5 was the worst with Revised in a close second

    9. Sailor Moon would be awesome to feature as either potential antagonists or allies in a VTM game

    10. Chicago By Night 1E is the perfect WoD setting

    11. The Humanity meter was a mistake and only seemed to be used by sadistic ST's wanting to enforce supernatural wangst

    12. Lodin was the best Prince in any WW book

    13. The 1E-era characters in Chicago, Gary, and Milwaukee were all better than the Revised-era signature characters like Lucita, Theo Bell, Vykos, and the like
    Last edited by Camilla; 11-13-2018, 09:09 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post
    I do recognise this, but if we are being honest, the reason why SJGames bought the license was an attempt to tap into the booming market that White Wolf had established with the WoD. It was a botched job, but I still have the game and some supplements. If White Wolf had taken control and worked on it (in collusion with the original writers, perhaps) - building on the lore and finding a way of integrating the tone and ideas - I think the results could have been a spectacular addition to the WoD line. It would have certainly been better than the Hunter/Demon games they ended up with.

    The closest we have to this is the Scion game, which has lots of merits, but doesn't find any space for a Judeo-Christian pantheon for some reason.
    I'm just saying that if they wanted to do angels, they probably should have done their own.

    Mind you, I love D:TF.

    It's just that it was badly marketed, the powers sucked, and the game is basically not very good at distinguishing itself from vampire.

    But the central idea of, "You are a demon who has escaped hell and trying to stay sane by clinging to humanity" is very very good.

    If a little...V:TM

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  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    The French Game In Nomine is a satire where Jesus is a stoner idiot who only gets by because he's the son of the boss. Its like an R-rated version of Good Omens and makes fun of society with over-the-top humor. Steve Jackson toned down the humor A LOT for publication....and it was still ridiculous. I think it might not have worked as the personal horror game you seem to be implying it would.

    I do recognise this, but if we are being honest, the reason why SJGames bought the license was an attempt to tap into the booming market that White Wolf had established with the WoD. It was a botched job, but I still have the game and some supplements. If White Wolf had taken control and worked on it (in collusion with the original writers, perhaps) - building on the lore and finding a way of integrating the tone and ideas - I think the results could have been a spectacular addition to the WoD line. It would have certainly been better than the Hunter/Demon games they ended up with.

    The closest we have to this is the Scion game, which has lots of merits, but doesn't find any space for a Judeo-Christian pantheon for some reason.

    Leave a comment:


  • Elphilm
    replied
    My only real unpopular opinion these days is that Vampire: The Masquerade is fine as it is. The game didn't lose anything by branching out from the original themes. "Incoherent" games like D&D always beat "coherent" games in popularity. The height of VtM's popularity was when the game was at its most "incoherent." 1st Edition VtM is fine. 2nd Edition VtM is fine. All the additional clans and quirky little bloodlines are just fine. Instead of endlessly tweaking the mechanics and setting in search of some unobtainable ideal, I nowadays find myself much rather focusing on actual play -- diverse scenarios, interesting adventures, fun character concepts, useful house rules, tips for running the game, and so on.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    The French Game In Nomine is a satire where Jesus is a stoner idiot who only gets by because he's the son of the boss. Its like an R-rated version of Good Omens and makes fun of society with over-the-top humor. Steve Jackson toned down the humor A LOT for publication....and it was still ridiculous. I think it might not have worked as the personal horror game you seem to be implying it would.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied


    My unpopular opinions:
    1. Redwolf's comments above are entirely right (and I don't think anything else needs to be added at this point).
    2. Vampire: The Masquerade always worked best when it focussed on just seven Clans - it became less interesting when it expanded out, and lost focus on core themes.
    3. Werewolf: The Apocalypse has never really portrayed werewolves right - as per literature, movie and folklore tropes - and it's release actually turned the WoD setting back towards it's D&D/wargaming roots in terms of general gameplay. It was an urban fantasy game rather than horror. It could have worked well in D20.
    4. The Gaia setting for Werewolf: The Apocalypse itself is excellent, but actually plays better if you run it without Werewolves - and just as ordinary people who have dedicated themselves to being spiritual eco-warriors.
    5. Mage: The Ascension is a brilliant idea that is poorly executed, partially because some gamers can't handle running with freeform systems (and the resultant clarifications that have accumulated make it complex), and partially because it's setting is shoehorned into the overall WoD, which creates lots of contradictions. The vast size of the M20 book is so unweildy, it almost totally obscures the genius of it's original core premise.
    6. Wraith: The Oblivion has a brilliant but complex Shadow-Play system, in a complex and arguably depressing setting. It's great to read, but near impossible to convince many gamers to actually play. It may have been a critical success, but it'll never sell to a wider audience. The Shadow-play system would have worked best as an advanced system (Avatars) in Mage: The Ascension.
    7. Changeling: The Dreaming was entirely the wrong tone for a World of Darkness setting, and was a total mess in it's original edition. It has improved since then, and actually works as an antidote to the WoD is some ways. It's actually the best game to play in live action.
    8. Hunter: The Reckoning and Demon: The Fallen were not well executed or recieved - but had White Wolf had the rights to publish the French game, In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas - instead of Steve Jackson Games - the result could have been the best WoD game(s) ever made. Similarly, the back story for Kult add all sorts of dimensions to a typical WoD game.
    9. New World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness games have some excellent ideas and slick presentation that generally address criticisms made about the classic World of Darkness games. However, they don't generate the same levels of passion, or interest, or support of the originals due to the policy of ironing out any reference to the real world - which makes them less culturally relevant.
    10. While there is some interest locally from gamers I appreciate, the broader gaming community as a whole knows little about WoD games these days - and established fans are sometimes unaware of how much this is the case. The player base in many cases is ageing and getting as set in their ways as other communities - like Traveller grognards, for example.
    11. I love White Wolf and World of Darkness games.
    Last edited by Trippy; 11-13-2018, 05:15 PM.

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  • Redwulfe
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    To address that big Wall of Text, Redwulfe
    Sorry I am a stream of consciousness in my first draft of anything.

    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I feel like V:TM lost something by forgetting that while the Camarilla is the Hidden Master of the WOD with the Union and Pentex, the fact is that humans actually can do have a chunk of the world for themselves.

    The Inquisition is all about the idea vampires, if the Masquerade were broken, would get their asses handed to them in a week.

    Which is exactly what the Second Inquisition is showing.

    Hitler wasn't the pawn of supernaturals, 9/11 thankfully wasn't.

    And the Inquisition against vampires wasn't.

    So, we need at least a FEW things which weren't supernaturals at work so we can establish humans as a power block.

    YMMV.
    I think mortals being the cause is a great thing and should happen but this can not always be the cause or it turns unbelievable after a while or maybe pointless to have evil supernatural forces in the world. I think it may come down to the choice of which tragedy is the supernatural involved in rather than them not being able to be involved at all.
    Last edited by Redwulfe; 11-13-2018, 04:21 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    To address that big Wall of Text, Redwulfe

    I feel like V:TM lost something by forgetting that while the Camarilla is the Hidden Master of the WOD with the Union and Pentex, the fact is that humans actually can do have a chunk of the world for themselves.

    The Inquisition is all about the idea vampires, if the Masquerade were broken, would get their asses handed to them in a week.

    Which is exactly what the Second Inquisition is showing.

    Hitler wasn't the pawn of supernaturals, 9/11 thankfully wasn't.

    And the Inquisition against vampires wasn't.

    So, we need at least a FEW things which weren't supernaturals at work so we can establish humans as a power block.

    YMMV.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redwulfe
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    I state it's more the issue of not following the Century RuleTM.

    The Century Rule being anything past a hundred years is fair game. I will say that people who do whine about the idea that the French Revolution involving vampires are going to exist but these people should be ignored.

    So, yes, the Brujah WERE behind Archduke Ferdinand's assassination and they DID fuck up Europe.
    I guess I just never viewed that the century rule was ever in effect in the WoD universe since everything in the universe is controlled by the Wyrm, Pentex, Technocracy, Sabbat or what not.

    To me WoD is defined by its metaplot and to say you can't use anything that is a tragedy in the last century means we just present new rules and no updated fluff. So though I am happy to see the new rules I would also like to see how the world of darkness continued. English is harder for me than some so I will try to explain a bit more on this as to try to get my thoughts clearly across.

    WW has to walk a fine line about how it presents tragedies that happened recently without upsetting people which leaves them in a tough spot since that is an impossible task to do, because what upsets one person will not upset another and the reverse is also true creating an impossible task. To add to this no matter who they upset they will have the people that do not want a new edition fanning the flames as well.

    At its core WoD is a game, a story and a setting. I think the game's systems are a separate issue so I will not talk about them here. If they stay away from current events in my opinion then all you have is a game and setting because it becomes extremely difficult to tell where we are now when you are in serious risk of upsetting someone. I can buy a history book if I want to see how mortals F'ed up the world, I buy a WoD book to see how the fictional universe of WoD ties their supernatural creatures into the mix. So basically by losing the story and focusing on the setting to try and not upset people we have, in essence, a masquerade version of CoD. A box of tools that you use in the setting presented to tell your own stories but we are using the supernatural elements and such of the WoD instead. The WoD20 series of books already give me that. I want the WoD5 series to give me something different. I for one wanted to see where the story wen't as this to me is what made masquerade different than CoD and WoD20. But if we can't have the story of any tragedy in the last century we put ourselves in a precarious situation in which we may not get the story and then to me it seems all a bit pointless, not totally mind you as I or one like the update to the system and the setting and that will be enough for me to update anyway.

    To tread lightly around current issues you can present the setting with opposing viewpoints but I think this however makes a worse story as their has no plot, escalating conflict, or resolution. If they focus on the story then they are prone to upset people in one fashion or another. This is my current issue with the outrages I have seen is they are just a disrespectful to WW as the action that WW made that caused the outrage. The only difference I am seeing is that WW did not intend to offend have apologized and are seeking a way to come to a resolution but the criticizers are not. They don't try to help fix it. They, in many instances, just call names, accuse, divide, ridicule, lie, abuse and trash talk. Their is no discussion or help to WW in getting us something better or to grow. Their is no constructive only criticism for the sake of criticizing. It makes me feel bad for WW as they are only wanting to give to us something and many of us are just disrespectfully Sh*ting all over them. It is not a proper way of treating someone and I for one do not like it. it seems very hypocritical of many. not you, but many.

    I feel that you are trying to come to a resolution and have offered a path to go down, and for that I am grateful, I just don't know if I am convinced it is the best path at this point since I feel the story will suffer. I think it is a safe path and It may work great for Vampire but for Werewolf or Mage it may be an impossible task. Though the other path is just print whatever you want anyway and not listen to the critics which is also not the best in my mind but I think it is easier for me to pick and choose from what is presented and to realize it is just a story and not real than to have to fill in all the detail and connections myself. so it is the path I would choose for them to go down. Vampires aren't real and the WoD is not our world so I just treat it like that and not take offense or I would have raged against a lot of the Native American portrayals a long time ago. And I am pretty sure the pipeline will make it into W5 and I personally hope it does. That does not mean I will like or use it. Once again I might as well just play CoD if story is not present since I like those Werewolf and Mage lines a bit better anyway.

    In closing, all tragedies presented are a factor of the supernatural and have been pointed to a supernatural force or transgressor in one way or another, either directly or indirectly. They have printed in the past worse and I do not wish to dredge them back to the surface for the sake of a debate, if you don't know then I would suggest reading into some of the VtM and WtA stuff written in the past. So I feel that the outrages will continue to grow as we move into W5 or M5. Especially W5 where most of the direct ties are present. This scares me as I feel the meta will suffer if WW tries to please everyone, which is an impossible task. But this is just my opinion, unpopular but mine none the less.
    Last edited by Redwulfe; 11-13-2018, 04:28 PM.

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  • Haeslich
    replied
    1. Werewolves are scarier and more evil than vampires. They are the bad guys.
    2. Mage is awesome af, best setting in WoD.
    3. 2nd Ed is the best.
    4. No one knows how to play Malkavians. I am tired of explaining to players why I wont let them roll a clown with a hammer.
    5. Los Angeles by Night is the best By Night ever released.
    6. The Sabbat will rule North America almost entirely, within the next 100 years.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post
    That the World of Darkness portrays all evil as a work of something supernatural in their fictional universe and that by doing so all off WW is doomed to a never ending cycle of real world outrage and criticism. My opinion is that by continuing to bow to this outrage that the WOD will suffer becoming too lighthearted for me and we may never see W5 or M5 presented in the fashion that is true to what I feel is its founding. I don't want WW to stop with what they have started. I think they should print their books they way they want to print them, accept that there will be people who don't like it, and allow me to decided what is in my game or not.
    I state it's more the issue of not following the Century RuleTM.

    The Century Rule being anything past a hundred years is fair game. I will say that people who do whine about the idea that the French Revolution involving vampires are going to exist but these people should be ignored.

    So, yes, the Brujah WERE behind Archduke Ferdinand's assassination and they DID fuck up Europe.

    Leave a comment:


  • Theodrim
    replied
    Here are some of mine.

    The Inconnu are more interesting as Autarkis, having removed themselves from the Jyhad to seek Golconda, as opposed to the converse.

    The Ventrue antitribu are a hell of a lot more interesting, thematically appropriate, and have a more fun discipline spread, than the main clan.

    The Tremere are not overpowered, nor is blood sorcery, and perceptions thereof are based on storyteller error to enforce the social intricacies of Tremere-everyone else relationships.

    Physical disciplines are not overpowered, in the long run are actually the weakest disciplines, and honestly a waste of experience to buy out of clan past two or three.

    Anarchs are morons, and shouldn't be idealized in any way, shape, or form.

    Brujah are not good guys, let alone Designated Good Guys. Fifth edition can fuck itself with this garbage, and the opinion listed above.

    TC is not a good chronicle if played as-written.

    Neither is GC, but it's marginally better.

    Neither are most published scenarios and chronicles, for that matter.

    (See #1) Lair of the Hidden is trash.

    The Order of Moloch is one of the most interesting factions added to the V20+ line of products.

    At least in the Dark Ages, Tzimisce are more interesting as a mini-sect all to their own, as a loose confederation of bloodlines based on revenant families who only share common ancestry, who only move towards conformity and anything resembling unity during the Anarch revolt.

    Likewise, bloodlines are interesting and should be explored by players with good character concepts, but shouldn't be used to justify snowflake-ism or power gaming.

    Trujah are cool as hell, but should be reserved for deeply character-, role playing-, and social-focused players.

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