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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by AzraelFirestorm View Post

    Oh, and there should be WAY more non-Nictuku Nosferatu 4th Gens and CANON Old Clan Tzimisce Methuselah (a small handful at least)..
    This was a mistake on the part of White Wolf, IMHO, but Baba Yaga is presumably the ancestor of all non-Nictuku Nosferatu.

    I don't see why they don't go with that.

    She's certainly powerful and smart enough to escape a Antediluvian's control.

    Leave a comment:


  • AzraelFirestorm
    replied
    Originally posted by Orphan81 View Post


    I don't get what you're trying to argue here? I mean beyond the fact Diablerie Mexico is one of the worst 1st eddition supplements and includes a dungeon map of a Methuselah's tomb and the "Bitter Rose" ritual.

    Two of my favorite older supplements, along with Dirty Secrets. Mexico City By Night and A World of Darkness (both editions)!

    Opinions:

    - There should have been a Road of Caine.

    - Roads are better than plain Humanity. Always.

    - Vicissitude as a disease is a fun concept. As a concept. It should just be an example of how certain Disciplines can be perceived, due to fear and/or ignorance, as something even worse than a "simple" Discipline.

    - Baba Yaga should be literally Prince of Russia. Did I mention I hate Nictuku?

    - Dracula in Beckett's Jyhad Diary isn't Dracula. That's a body double. Yes, Beckett fell for it.

    - Saulot was actually a nice guy.

    - Troile is a woman. So is Moloch. Neither of them would have let themselves fall with Carthage, and they didn't.

    - None of the Antediluvians are truly dead. Yet.

    - Caine probably had actual, human children at some point.

    - Koldun, Sadhus and Ashipu (among other sorcerers) deal with the spirits/Gods from Werewolf.

    - Dhampir are awesome, and should be more powerful (and occur far earlier in the past).

    Oh, and there should be WAY more non-Nictuku Nosferatu 4th Gens and CANON Old Clan Tzimisce Methuselah (a small handful at least)..

    Leave a comment:


  • Cielle
    replied
    To my mind, there's only one appropriate response when someone says "you can't" (or more precisely, "you can try but I'll just kill you off") regarding some plot element in an RPG setting:



    I much prefer to tell players "you can". I'll come up with some way for the story to get there. And honestly it's just more fun to run a game where you can run wild with the setting rather than try to keep it static - iconoclasm is a pleasure in itself.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Orphan81 View Post
    I don't get what you're trying to argue here? I mean beyond the fact Diablerie Mexico is one of the worst 1st eddition supplements and includes a dungeon map of a Methuselah's tomb and the "Bitter Rose" ritual.
    I'm making a joke.

    Leave a comment:


  • Orphan81
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post


    I don't get what you're trying to argue here? I mean beyond the fact Diablerie Mexico is one of the worst 1st eddition supplements and includes a dungeon map of a Methuselah's tomb and the "Bitter Rose" ritual.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    But he's an immortal elf. Some noname shadowrunner, with maybe several decades under their belt is just not in the same league as those, who were around since the last great age of magic. That is good, it gives a weight to the setting and its backstory. Same with WoD. If any coterie of neonates could take down methuselahs, that would make a lot of the setting pointless.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    One thing to add to the topic of dragons and Middle Earth: I'm not assuming anything, but if you didn't read the Silmarillion, do it. It's Epic (yes, with capital) on a level that could put the D&D Epic Level Handbook, or Pathfinder's Mythic Adventures to shame.

    Seriously, we're talking about the firstborn, quasi-demigod elves from their original homeland from the West and their whole fucking pantheon duking it outh with Morgoth, the original Dark Lord (for whom Saurun was just one of the chief liutenants and who was practically Lucifer's analogy) and his armies of great winged dragons and balrogs. Yep. It was on a whole different level than LotR and the Hobbit.

    As for Shadowrun, Harlquin went up against Ghostwalker and while he didn't win (I'm not even sure he wanted to go for the kill, really, I think it was just he wanted to beat him up and got himslef beaten up because of Aina's death), but he gave Ghosty a run for his money and the old wyrm had to lick his wounds after a while and Harlequin lived too.

    But he's an immortal elf. Some noname shadowrunner, with maybe several decades under their belt is just not in the same league as those, who were around since the last great age of magic. That is good, it gives a weight to the setting and its backstory. Same with WoD. If any coterie of neonates could take down methuselahs, that would make a lot of the setting pointless.
    Last edited by PMárk; 12-01-2018, 10:37 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Honestly, it's funny because I prefer 12th and 13th generation Anarch Neonate PCs.

    My Players keep asking what's going on in Gehenna and how we can help.

    Now, that's an interesting question. I mean, if I'd want to go into wild theories, could it be that the newer generations grew up on stories, where you're always the important, exceptional, magical Chosen One, who could take down foes they really shouldn't be able to and it's always YOU who have to Save The World?

    And how is it shifted the expectations toward roleplaying games and how much it might influenced the birth of storygames?

    Yes, I'm just half-serious. It's and interesting topic, though.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Oh, I've never had the PCs be the biggest fish in the barrel. I strongly think if you're playing an Elder or a Low Generation character then you're missing out on a lot of the game. However, that's a different subject about what I call "Crappy Plot Device NPCs."
    I just think they are different, but equally worthwhile experiences. More than that, I think putting the low level stuff as the sole focus is limiting on more than one level.



    1. That is literally the plot of the Hobbit.
    No.

    Smaug wasn't a Great Dragon, on Middle Earth. Those were gone with Morgoth. Like Ascalagon the Black, or Glaurung. Those were killed by the mightiest heroes of the ancient elves, with the strongest artifacts the world have known, not by mundane nobodies and even them died in the process frequently. The heroes of the Fellowship and the Hobbit would have died in those conflicts like flies. Exactly like Nobody M. Neonate would against Kemintiri.


    See this, for reference:


    Smaug was a relatively small and young dragon. A young adult, or adult on Shadowrun terms. Runners could take down those, as a team, if they are smart and skilled enough.

    2. Massive amounts of the metaplot of Vampire: The Masquerade is about taking down milllennia-old vampires. It's the goal of multiple adventure modules, Helena of Chicago is the Big EvilTM of Chicago, and there's an entire supplement called the Red List which exists solely to give the PCs potential ancient enemies to take down.
    And how any of them say you just go against Menele, or Helena, or Kemintiri and just win?

    As I've said, I like that in WoD, nobody is untouchable (at least upt to ante level and I also stated that I don't like them as invincible blood gods), but you have to reach the level where you could do such a feat. A bunch of simple neaonates wouldn't be able to. Maybe with an extremely clever plan, because vampires still have banes that could be exploited, but even that isn't a certainity, since the really powerfull mosnters could do a lot of things with their powers.

    The Sabbat are specifically winning the Gehenna War in canon.
    The Sabbat consists of elders and methusleahs too and they have a lot of soldiers to throw away. It's different than 5 neonates against a 4000 old methuselah. Also, where they stated there are winning? In the Cam book, Fatima, who isn't even that old single-handedly slays an entire camp of Sabbat vampires and their US soldier flunkies. With a knitting needle.

    The whole point of being in a coterie is alone any Neonate is anyone else's meat but together they can resist the Elders. The War of Ages is based on the many of the young versus the single of the Old.
    In my oppinion, the war of ages contains a lot more in itself than just that. Or, that it's a rather big simplification of it.


    I think if you are facing an opponent who doesn't utterly dwarf you in power, resources, and ability as the opponent of a Chronicle you're doing it wrong.
    I respect your oppinion, but I don't necessarily agree. Feuding camps and such could be just as much fun. Also, we're speaking about levels and let's not forget the notion that you could start as someone that couldn't even touch the big bad, but eventually, you can reach that level of power. It's jsut not a given and you may sacrifice a lot.

    However, there's no excuse for To Grandmother's House We Go's ending. The ending of that module is "The Nickutu kills your Nosferatu NPC." The person who wrote that should be ashamed of themselves because they take the entire emotional investment of the Player in their character and then kills the character because "The Nickutu has no stats and kills the Nosferatu."
    Well, in a modul, I'd agree, that's bad writing.

    Which is the problem of Ur-Shulgi because he's a thing which alters the entire course of a campaign world.
    He does it on a level high enough that he doesn't need to cross paths with the PCs, ever, if that kind of highpower stories around the globe aren't the group's thing. It doesn't matter how strong Ur-Shulgi is, if the coterie only meets Assamites in their home city who are on their level, or slightly above.

    He is a vampire who has declared war on all other vampires, has revived the ancient death cult practices of the Web of Knives, and has split the campaign world in two. He is a character who will eventually kill all other Kindred unless he's dealt with because that's what the Old Testament Assamites do.
    See above.

    So, it falls to the PCs to do something about him because he's too big of an issue not to have something to do about him. Because he is IN YOUR GAME whether you want him to be or not if you are dealing with canon.
    He's in the world, but not necessarily in your game. He could affect you, but not directly, if you don't play on that level. If the players decide they want to do something about him, well, then it's time for starting to gather allies and/or accumulating as much individual power as they could, because it'll be a Boss Fight on epic levels. But no, some nobody neonates from Boston wouldn't and shouldn't be able to take him down. That would trivialize the whole gravitas of the setting.
    It doesn't matter if an Elder works behind the shadows or is chess pieces, it matters if they are characters who are said to "show up and kill every Ravnos in the game." It's the same issue I have with the Tremere Antribu being killed by Tremere because "screw you, player, you don't matter."
    I'll say again: the game is about the players, the setting is not. Especially a setting with a metaplot. It has its own story, outside of your game. That is why a bunch of people prefer Requiem over Masquerade and generally, toolbox games. Those are entirelly revolving around their characters. A "living" setting is not. Sometimes that means you wouldn't like the story (see my problems with V5's plot we often discussed), but that's the nature of the thing. It has lots of things going for it, though.

    It's not cool and I think it's game ruining fun.

    At the end of the day, the game exists to ensure the players' fun. But YMMV.
    This is the oh-so-frequently repeated argument. However, it's a bit of a fallacy, since "fun" is not the same thing for everyone. For example, for me, having the sense of a bigger, living world around the characters is fun. Reading about its story and following its happenings and signature characters is fun. Using metaplot elements, name-dropping, cameos with those npcs and such is fun. Makes more connection, makes the setting more "alive".
    Last edited by PMárk; 12-01-2018, 09:53 PM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Neamhan View Post
    Obviously the solution is to play Exalted, where if your Solars haven't beaten the Unconquered Sun yet, they just haven't been properly motivated.
    Honestly, it's funny because I prefer 12th and 13th generation Anarch Neonate PCs.

    My Players keep asking what's going on in Gehenna and how we can help.

    Leave a comment:


  • Neamhan
    replied
    Obviously the solution is to play Exalted, where if your Solars haven't beaten the Unconquered Sun yet, they just haven't been properly motivated.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    It is just as fun to play in a low powered campaign (where the PCs affect things on a local level) as it is in a high powered campaign (where the PCs affect things on a setting wide level). It is just two different kinds of fun. Daredevil beating up Turk and Grotto and fighting common criminals and a few uber-competent, but otherwise normal human villains, but unable to touch the Kingpin is just as enjoyable as the Silver Surfer travelling between galaxies and dealing with the Elders of the Universe. It is just different kinds of tropes and setting elements used, even though both are part of the Marvel Universe of superheroes. But it rarely makes sense to have elements of one appear in the stories of another.

    This is one reason I dislike the idea of metaplot and how it affects canon in your game. Ur-Shulgi's story has no place in a game where the ST and her PCs are running a low level game of neonate vampires learning how to survive in a predatory society while keeping their humanity. But it is perfectly OK if a ST introduces Ur-Shulgi as a specific chronicle plot point in a more gonzo game dealing with the Jyhad.

    A much better approach is to treat everything as a toolkit. A supplement that has various stories/plots designed to showcase the approach of Gehenna that includes things like Ur-Shulgi, Sabbat Crusades along the East Coast, destruction of the Ravnos, etc. is perfectly fine. It just shouldn't be "canon". These kinds of mass changes to the setting seem less designed as a good game experience for the players, and more like cash grabbing exercise to get you to buy the next edition.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
    I could relate to that and as I said earlier, I like that WoD has the theoretical chance for players to reach that high up.

    At the same time, in my mind it was always a main point of the setting that the characters are small fish, likely and there are much bigger forces than them.
    Oh, I've never had the PCs be the biggest fish in the barrel. I strongly think if you're playing an Elder or a Low Generation character then you're missing out on a lot of the game. However, that's a different subject about what I call "Crappy Plot Device NPCs."

    Which I'll get into.

    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    No. It's world design you don't like.
    We'll get into that.

    I'm just asking, why is it logical that a bunch of average metahumans should be able to take down a great dragon? That a coterie of neonates should be able to take down a several-thousand-years old vampire?
    1. That is literally the plot of the Hobbit.

    2. Massive amounts of the metaplot of Vampire: The Masquerade is about taking down milllennia-old vampires. It's the goal of multiple adventure modules, Helena of Chicago is the Big EvilTM of Chicago, and there's an entire supplement called the Red List which exists solely to give the PCs potential ancient enemies to take down.

    The Sabbat are specifically winning the Gehenna War in canon.

    The whole point of being in a coterie is alone any Neonate is anyone else's meat but together they can resist the Elders. The War of Ages is based on the many of the young versus the single of the Old.

    Also. I get that people are playing rpgs (among many things) for wish fulfillment and to feel empowered. It's escapism, I'm doing it too. But, for some genres, it's just not fitting. The presence of bigger powers, which aren't untouchable, but untouchable for you at your current state adds to the oppressive feel, to the feel of exactly being small fish and settings like WoD, or SR was builded heavily upon that feel.
    I think if you are facing an opponent who doesn't utterly dwarf you in power, resources, and ability as the opponent of a Chronicle you're doing it wrong.

    However, there's no excuse for To Grandmother's House We Go's ending. The ending of that module is "The Nickutu kills your Nosferatu NPC." The person who wrote that should be ashamed of themselves because they take the entire emotional investment of the Player in their character and then kills the character because "The Nickutu has no stats and kills the Nosferatu."

    Which is the problem of Ur-Shulgi because he's a thing which alters the entire course of a campaign world. He is a vampire who has declared war on all other vampires, has revived the ancient death cult practices of the Web of Knives, and has split the campaign world in two. He is a character who will eventually kill all other Kindred unless he's dealt with because that's what the Old Testament Assamites do.

    So, it falls to the PCs to do something about him because he's too big of an issue not to have something to do about him. Because he is IN YOUR GAME whether you want him to be or not if you are dealing with canon.

    It doesn't matter if an Elder works behind the shadows or is chess pieces, it matters if they are characters who are said to "show up and kill every Ravnos in the game." It's the same issue I have with the Tremere Antribu being killed by Tremere because "screw you, player, you don't matter."

    It's not cool and I think it's game ruining fun.

    At the end of the day, the game exists to ensure the players' fun. But YMMV.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 12-01-2018, 08:53 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Orphan81 View Post



    If you're playing in a World War 2 based RPG, President Franklin Roosevelt, and Adolph Hitler will always be more important than your PCs. Hitler will even always be more powerful than your PCs due to commanding an entire army. This doesn't make playing soldiers in WW 2 a bad game.

    If you're playing in a street level Superhero game... Superman will always be more powerful than your PCs... The Silver Surfer will always be more powerful than your PCs... As will Galactus and Darkseid... Their existence in the world doesn't suddenly make your street level superheroes not the main characters of your game, or worse because in a straight up fight against Darkseid he would kill every one of them.

    In the roleplaying game Deadlands, the servitor "Stone" is so over powered, it is VERY unlikely your PCs will be able to kill him. In fact, in a straight up regular fight, they can't. He's flat out invincible if they don't know what his supernatural weakness is, where to find it, and how to use it... Yet he's an antagonist who roams the setting like a boogey man, killing Heroes. There is an entire campaign dedicated to taking him out (Stone and a Hard Place) where your PCs will need to be "max" level to even stand a chance. Yet Deadlands remains one of the coolest and most fun settings ever, and Stone is beloved as an NPC that the fanbase wants to bring down and kill.

    The existence of NPC's who are stronger and have a greater influence on the setting doesn't mean your PCs are not the "Main characters" of their campaign. If you want your PCs to take on characters like Ur-Shlugi then clearly they shouldn't be making 13th generation neonates. They should instead most likely be playing 8th gen or lower Archons, Templars or Members of the Black Hand who plumb the depths of the Underworld and stranger places to discover the lost blood magic rituals which can counter his overwhelming power and give them a fighting chance...

    This whole idea of "We need to nerf the NPC's so my 13th generation characters can take them down in a scrap" is one of the worse game design choices that has been made about 5th edition.
    Agree and with your post afterward too.

    Honestly, I just think it's a matter of difference in expecttions about what one wants out of the game. Some people want their characters to be the absolute focal points of the world, others want to feel the setting to be a bigger, living world, outside their immediate stories and PCs.

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Yeah, that's my point. I think it's bad game design and it's why I'm liking the restriction to Attributes of 5 and Disciplines of 5.
    No. It's world design you don't like.

    I'm just asking, why is it logical that a bunch of average metahumans should be able to take down a great dragon? That a coterie of neonates should be able to take down a several-thousand-years old vampire?

    Also. I get that people are playing rpgs (among many things) for wish fulfillment and to feel empowered. It's escapism, I'm doing it too. But, for some genres, it's just not fitting. The presence of bigger powers, which aren't untouchable, but untouchable for you at your current state adds to the oppressive feel, to the feel of exactly being small fish and settings like WoD, or SR was builded heavily upon that feel.

    Leave a comment:

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