Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Sunlight protection

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Sunlight protection

    Hello all,

    I read on a discord post that, in v5, vampires can take shelter from the sun by enclosing themselves in a "sunbag" which is supposed to be like a totally enclosed sleeping bag.

    Not having yet bought v5, can anyone that has please tell me if it truly is so?

    If it is then futuristic fully isolated and helmeted suits could do the same, no?

    I always found it odd that being in full darkness in a building would protect a vampire whereas a fully radiation isolated suit with video feeds for the sight would not.

    So this rumor is quite interesting as it opens a number of avenues for tech savvy characters to find opportunities in finding creative solutions to the sunlight issue.

  • #2
    The fully isolated rradation suit will work but the vampire will still have to spend WP becuase the day makes him feel dizzy.

    It also draws attention but i can picture a paranoid malkavian elder slepping in a contaiment suit just in case somebody tries to enter his haven during the day. (I would).

    PD:Also talking about sunlight how harsh do people make sunlight in your games? In my games depending of the generation/blood potency you burn faster or slower having chances of surviving around 1 or 2 minutes , the big thing about sunlight is that you cannot activate disciplines during the day althought the pasive effects still work.You also get a penalty in all the physical rolls.


    Hunger pool

    Comment


    • #3
      In V20, strictly speaking, such a suit may not help.

      Armor protects against bashing, lethal, and aggravated damage from teeth and claws; it does not protect against fire or sunlight.
      (V20, p274)

      If an ST does not want such a suit, it is easy enough to disallow it with the RAW rules.

      However, if an ST does want to allow a pc to adapt NASA "moon suits" into vampire "Noon-suits" houseruling it seems quite reasonable.

      There are some large obstacles in the pc's way, though.

      Mortals have never built such a suit. They've made space suits, radiation suits, fire retardant suits, and so forth. All of these allow visible light to pass through to allow vision. So, a Noonsuit would need to be engineered and built bespoke. This requires a wide range of tools, materials, and expertise. NASA has spent something in the range of $200 million developing suits through the years, and some of that research is useful in building a Noonsuit, but not all of it. Building an individual spacesuit costs something in the range of $2M, in a previously established workshop.

      Upside is that vampires don't require breathing apparatus or other life support equipment. So, the starting entry-level, low-ball estimate of establishing such a workshop and building such a suit is likely $10M or more.

      Assuming a vampire could assemble the staff, materials, and tools needed, how do they test the suit? Each iteration would require field-testing with an actual vampire inside. Who volunteers for this?

      Which leads to the problem of the pilot for the suit. As Leandro16 noted, sunlight is the least of a vampire's problem at noon. You would need a pilot with either a very high Humanity, a merit like Light Sleeper, or a high-level discipline which allows daylight activity.

      There's also a question of why a vampire would want such a suit. It couldn't be used for combat of any sort, since the slightest pinhole (let alone a bullet hole) would cause the occupant to combust... inside an oven designed to contain energy. Many vampiric disciplines, such as Dominate and Animalism, require eye-contact or line of sight, which do not transfer over video feeds. A Noonsuit wouldn't allow appearing at a daytime event unobtrusively to squelch rumors about not coming out during the day. If the goal is for the suit to act as a back-up to the Haven, you would do better spending the money on building a better Haven.

      So, what, exactly, is the use of such a suit? The answer to that question will help determine if it is worth it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Nosimplehiway, I agree completely for v20 but i saw a post on a discord server about a v5 equipment item called a sunbag, that allows to survive daylight. To me its name suggests it to be light/portable and if it's a common-ish item, it cannot be that expensive. I don't have v5, so I can't check.

        Extending this concept into a suit would allow mobility. Considering the strength of a vampire compared to a similarly sized human, why not armour it with kevlar or even heavier solutions?

        As Leandro16 noted, the operator being capable of daytime operations would be the highest factor in determining usability. However if such an armoured suit were to be used by a squad on a raid during night-time, it's users would have a much better chance of survival if caught outside by daybreak than without it.

        By the same token, vampires forced to travel during daylight would have another layer of protection and the suit would not give away it's contents right away, allowing it to pass as cargo (prop for a movie/con, etc).

        Want to make it less conspicuous? Make it in the shape of a Darth Vader replica or why not Mickey or Donald? - Yeah no elder would wear that though...

        Want to blend in with human operators? Make it look like a tactical suit and put an Inquisition patch on it.

        Unless I'm mistaken, vampires can rouse if in danger, isn't it? If the haven is breached and you have to evacuate, such suit could provide the ability to execute a fighting retreat (with human weapons).

        I found a couple of images that could fit quite well :

        https://i.pinimg.com/736x/44/2d/ca/4...0ec38720de.jpg

        https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/030...3741442818.jpg

        Anyway, it's just a wild idea that a malkavian scientist could come up with (and maybe have the PC test as part of a boon owed?)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
          Mortals have never built such a suit. They've made space suits, radiation suits, fire retardant suits, and so forth. All of these allow visible light to pass through to allow vision. So, a Noonsuit would need to be engineered and built bespoke. This requires a wide range of tools, materials, and expertise. NASA has spent something in the range of $200 million developing suits through the years, and some of that research is useful in building a Noonsuit, but not all of it. Building an individual spacesuit costs something in the range of $2M, in a previously established workshop.

          Upside is that vampires don't require breathing apparatus or other life support equipment. So, the starting entry-level, low-ball estimate of establishing such a workshop and building such a suit is likely $10M or more.
          I believe you are seriously overestimating the price and complexity of such a suit.
          Alternate solution: Go to your nearest fetish shop, buy a latex catsuit including a mask, get a VR headset to put on top of it and some emergency patches for holes. Estimated price: Less than two thousand dollars.

          DuncanD
          IIRC, the "sunbag" is simply a classic heavy duty body bag (the kind you always see in police procedurals even though noone uses them in RL anymore). It's used by anarchs as a last resort for traveling and most of them hate it because... well, any mortal stumbling upon such a bag containing a a human shape will either open it or call the cops.

          The main problems with such a suit would likely be the combination of day fatigue and rötschreck - after all, the Beast can see the sun and it will not be happy about it.
          And of course, there's the question of thematic appropriateness: Do you want to play in a game where the biggest curse of vampire-kind can be cheated in such a way? If yes, more power to you, if no, just ignore the possibility.

          Comment


          • #6
            The short version is it's not that difficult to get vampires not to be burned to ash.

            However, it drives the Beast crazy.

            Like if you wore a flame retardant suit and still set yourself on fire.

            Everyone around you is dead.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

            Comment


            • #7
              V20's sunlight rules have varying levels per turn and varying soak difficulty depending on the type of sunlight and the context.

              Any "armor" against sunlight is simply modifying that. A curtain slightly obscuring the sun's rays is one example, and a full body suit which covers all of your skin is another.

              But VtM has always made it clear that Vampires struggle to act during the day, sunlight being simply the most lethal expression of this. In V20 your dice pools are limited to your Humanity/Path score, and you need to spend Willpower to act in most situations.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                I believe you are seriously overestimating the price and complexity of such a suit.
                Alternate solution: Go to your nearest fetish shop, buy a latex catsuit including a mask, get a VR headset to put on top of it and some emergency patches for holes. Estimated price: Less than two thousand dollars.

                DuncanD
                IIRC, the "sunbag" is simply a classic heavy duty body bag (the kind you always see in police procedurals even though noone uses them in RL anymore). It's used by anarchs as a last resort for traveling and most of them hate it because... well, any mortal stumbling upon such a bag containing a a human shape will either open it or call the cops.

                The main problems with such a suit would likely be the combination of day fatigue and rötschreck - after all, the Beast can see the sun and it will not be happy about it.
                And of course, there's the question of thematic appropriateness: Do you want to play in a game where the biggest curse of vampire-kind can be cheated in such a way? If yes, more power to you, if no, just ignore the possibility.
                It's the possibility that's interesting. My initial reaction to the comment was disbelief based on the v20 rules Nosimplehiway quoted. I didn't think something like that would stop a vampire from burning in the sunlight.

                However since v5 seems to really up the ant regarding threats to vampires, maybe that's why White Wolf inserted this item in the core v5 book?

                Since you describe the "sunbag" as a simply heavy duty body bag, i agree with your "cheap solution". This however makes it even more likely that a heavily armoured version could work very well.

                Such a solution could be derived from hazmat combat suits and if you add a video monitor for your surroundings, there's nothing to say it couldn't have a filter that would remove the sun and retain a much darkened image.

                This suit is not a perfect solution, day fatigue and rötschreck are still huge factors, but it's not supposed to be perfect.

                I can see a Malkavian scientist coming up with a design and managing to convince some Camarilla bigwigs to put some money down on the project.

                A PC coterie could be ordered to give it a trial run or being told nothing and sent into enemy territory equiped with it to see if they would survive.

                Furthermore, a light lightly armoured version could be built to replicate an integral biker suit a bit like the ones that replicate super hero costumes or movie suits :

                https://www.geekalerts.com/u/Tron-Ri...ycle-Suits.jpg

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D293FEU9zbs

                They actually sell some of them here (Tron ones seem to be discontinued) :

                https://www.udreplicas.com/products.html#products_9

                Who's gonna think vampire when they see this? Just an ultra geek that happens to ride a bike

                Besides the characters could wear an overcoat to hide a bit the suit (not for the cool effect at all...)

                This isn't supposed to allow characters to become daywalkers but it would add some survivability for a strike team caught outside by daybreak

                Actually, the Batman suit without helmet costs a bit less that 2000 USD https://www.udreplicas.com/products/...ycle-suit.html

                The best part would be that if you let PC characters have a suit like this, it would force them to go about things in a much stealthier manner as any damage to the suit could jeopardize exfiltration options

                The thing is that i am preparing a v20 chronicle (my first as an ST ) and i am very very tempted to insert this possibility via homerules in mid chronicle (PC's would hear about the malkavian scientist project and be sent to see why it has gone silent)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  The short version is it's not that difficult to get vampires not to be burned to ash.

                  However, it drives the Beast crazy.

                  Like if you wore a flame retardant suit and still set yourself on fire.

                  Everyone around you is dead.
                  Sorry, i didn't understand the reference. In this case, the video seen inside the helmet could be processed video that didn't show that it's day "outside".

                  Would this help manage the beast?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 11twiggins View Post
                    V20's sunlight rules have varying levels per turn and varying soak difficulty depending on the type of sunlight and the context.

                    Any "armor" against sunlight is simply modifying that. A curtain slightly obscuring the sun's rays is one example, and a full body suit which covers all of your skin is another.

                    But VtM has always made it clear that Vampires struggle to act during the day, sunlight being simply the most lethal expression of this. In V20 your dice pools are limited to your Humanity/Path score, and you need to spend Willpower to act in most situations.
                    I completely agree with you. In V20 I wouldn't have thought even of a "sunbag" as is described by Cifer for the v5 corebook reference i mentioned.

                    If we accept that such light protection works to protect a slumbering vampire for the entire day, why not a suit that allows a vampire to survive sunrise or firstlight long enough to reach safety.

                    I think that most players might be tempted to push this and therefore things get interesting because the sun is not the main enemy anymore it's the state of the PC's humanity and willpower.

                    Do you want your character to diablerize an NPC? Welll, okay but you might no longer be able to stay awake past a certain point after sunrise... Are you sure you want to risk it?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DuncanD View Post
                      Sorry, i didn't understand the reference. In this case, the video seen inside the helmet could be processed video that didn't show that it's day "outside".

                      Would this help manage the beast?
                      Everything the vampire knows, the Beast knows, including the fact that inevitable death lurks about an inch away from the vampire's skin. Not showing it directly will certainly be helpful, to a point, but take your biggest arachnophobe friend, put them in biker leathers and tell them they're perfectly safe from the 20 or so poisonous spiders in the room, which, by the way, they can't see.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                        Everything the vampire knows, the Beast knows, including the fact that inevitable death lurks about an inch away from the vampire's skin. Not showing it directly will certainly be helpful, to a point, but take your biggest arachnophobe friend, put them in biker leathers and tell them they're perfectly safe from the 20 or so poisonous spiders in the room, which, by the way, they can't see.
                        You do have a point... But it's a good one !
                        I get to tempt players with a bit of daywalking while they have to manage not frenzying while fending of torpor... It's a thin hope but it is quite more useful for higher gen and/or higher humanity vampires and it would be quite the equalizer against elder or lower gen vampires in general

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Remember though that you need 5 successes on the roll to stay awake to be able to act for a scene, with dicepools capped by humanity/path, otherwise it is successes=turns. And that is in effect even underground/deepsea where sun cannot be seen, it merely rising causes the fatigue to set in. Failing the roll puts you to sleep untill sufficient danger/disturbement allows you to roll again. Botching the roll puts you to sleep untill evening or final death so suit or no it’s gonna be quite risky to even try to act on day time.

                          Personally despite any filters on video feed I would force full Rötchreck rolls due to you still understanding full well what it is outside the suit, and if you know so does the Beast.

                          Edit: And I somehow managed to miss the entire post of Cifer which makes my latter point for me.... Have no idea how I did not see the post.
                          Last edited by Possessed; 11-11-2018, 01:55 PM. Reason: Blindness

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                            Remember though that you need 5 successes on the roll to stay awake to be able to act for a scene, with dicepools capped by humanity/path, otherwise it is successes=turns. And that is in effect even underground/deepsea where sun cannot be seen, it merely rising causes the fatigue to set in. Failing the roll puts you to sleep untill sufficient danger/disturbement allows you to roll again. Botching the roll puts you to sleep untill evening or final death so suit or no it’s gonna be quite risky to even try to act on day time.

                            Personally despite any filters on video feed I would force full Rötchreck rolls due to you still understanding full well what it is outside the suit, and if you know so does the Beast.

                            Edit: And I somehow managed to miss the entire post of Cifer which makes my latter point for me.... Have no idea how I did not see the post.
                            As I answered Cifer, this is part of the good stuff. With this, you get to tempt players with daywalking while making sure it's only really useful for vamps with higher humanity hence why the bigwigs would sent a coterie composed of experienced neonates on a high risk high value mission.

                            Humanity becomes a really valuable commodity.

                            But even if the vampire were to fall to torpor shortly after sunrise, this kind of suit would be far better than just burning up and it would allow them to take shelter in more improvised locations if a regular haven couldn't be had. The same for travelling during daytime. A ghoul delivering movie props for filming would be less conspicuous than one with four big boxes in his truck...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I've never really had a player try that hard to day walk, because most people are cognizant of the fact that it is against the themes of the game. But if one of my players persisted, I would probably throw increasingly difficult frenzy checks at them to dissuade them. The Red Fear is not something that can be contravened by a video helmet and some latex. You are walking around in broad daylight. If someone takes off your helmet, you are dead. If someone even creates a small tear in your suit, you are dead. And you will be very very very aware of these risks. So you will be afraid and susceptible to frenzy.

                              And if all else fails, I would just say "Did you really think I was going to let you outsmart God?"

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X