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  • DuncanD
    started a topic Sunlight protection

    Sunlight protection

    Hello all,

    I read on a discord post that, in v5, vampires can take shelter from the sun by enclosing themselves in a "sunbag" which is supposed to be like a totally enclosed sleeping bag.

    Not having yet bought v5, can anyone that has please tell me if it truly is so?

    If it is then futuristic fully isolated and helmeted suits could do the same, no?

    I always found it odd that being in full darkness in a building would protect a vampire whereas a fully radiation isolated suit with video feeds for the sight would not.

    So this rumor is quite interesting as it opens a number of avenues for tech savvy characters to find opportunities in finding creative solutions to the sunlight issue.

  • DuncanD
    replied
    Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

    Exactly. To any non-informed mortal. What is it to informed mortals? It's the same problem as any other low-key Masquerade violation. The non-informed mortals, as you put it, aren't the threat -- the informed mortals are.

    Same deal as, say, a Ventrue who gets too careless working mojo on jet-setters -- the jet-setter isn't the problem. The jet-setter's bodyguard or a member of their entourage, who the Ventrue may not think too much about, starts seeing patterns -- the jet-setter's friend only showing up at night, the jet-setter acting suspiciously interested in or obsessed with the Ventrue, the jet-setter acceding to strange demands -- and thinks, "none of this seems right", and takes to friends or the internet for information on what may be going on. They get their hands on the right e-mail address or deep web URL, or they know a guy who knows a guy, and next thing you know here comes the Society of Leopold with a description, an alias, and an axe to grind (probably literally).

    Same reason why vampires aren't too keen on leaving magical talismans, stakes, or mags loading with tracers around. Or why mortals down "only" one or two blood points are still a liability. It's the people "in the know" who are the problem, and the chance someone in the know finds it, finds out about it, or hears about it to start sniffing around, is the real threat. Little mistakes add up over time, and they're the worst for it because they're the ones most likely to go unnoticed. The books make the grave error of speaking of the Masquerade in almost exclusively "big picture" language, which puts this false representation in people's minds the only breaches of import, are the massive breaches like busting out Potence or Celerity in public, that in reality likely wouldn't have nearly the impact of a hundred, or even ten, minor, unnoticed, and therefore unreported and un-remedied, breaches.
    Thank you for the explanation.

    Then, what's to prevent the suit to be built to replicate the appearance of an existing vanilla military suit?
    Or even a fictional suit like war machine's or Darth vader? Four guys on bikes with black trooper armor from star wars, how is it threatening and worth a report?

    Even though I'm defending the adaptability of this suit, I do agree with you about the "minor" masquerade violations.

    Leave a comment:


  • Theodrim
    replied
    Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

    I don't understand the masquerade violation issue. To any non informed human, it would just be some kind of military tech/stealth suit, I think.
    Exactly. To any non-informed mortal. What is it to informed mortals? It's the same problem as any other low-key Masquerade violation. The non-informed mortals, as you put it, aren't the threat -- the informed mortals are.

    Same deal as, say, a Ventrue who gets too careless working mojo on jet-setters -- the jet-setter isn't the problem. The jet-setter's bodyguard or a member of their entourage, who the Ventrue may not think too much about, starts seeing patterns -- the jet-setter's friend only showing up at night, the jet-setter acting suspiciously interested in or obsessed with the Ventrue, the jet-setter acceding to strange demands -- and thinks, "none of this seems right", and takes to friends or the internet for information on what may be going on. They get their hands on the right e-mail address or deep web URL, or they know a guy who knows a guy, and next thing you know here comes the Society of Leopold with a description, an alias, and an axe to grind (probably literally).

    Same reason why vampires aren't too keen on leaving magical talismans, stakes, or mags loading with tracers around. Or why mortals down "only" one or two blood points are still a liability. It's the people "in the know" who are the problem, and the chance someone in the know finds it, finds out about it, or hears about it to start sniffing around, is the real threat. Little mistakes add up over time, and they're the worst for it because they're the ones most likely to go unnoticed. The books make the grave error of speaking of the Masquerade in almost exclusively "big picture" language, which puts this false representation in people's minds the only breaches of import, are the massive breaches like busting out Potence or Celerity in public, that in reality likely wouldn't have nearly the impact of a hundred, or even ten, minor, unnoticed, and therefore unreported and un-remedied, breaches.

    Leave a comment:


  • DuncanD
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    I'd recommend having some sort of Hedge Mage/Faithful to create the ammo rather than having a purely science answer. Hedge mage could enchant it with sunlight, Faithful being Holy Water or Blessed silver. Even a garou/Kinfolk that is technically creating talens from Helios spirits.
    That's a very good idea, thanks ! It adds to the difficulty of making such ammo and gives a good reason why it works in-lore, awesome !

    Leave a comment:


  • DuncanD
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


    Well, remember, the purpose of the suit is to block out sunlight, and that's really the only thing that it absolutely needs to do. Vampires are impervious to most other forms of environmental hazards and biological contaminates. I think the previous idea about reinforcing the suit with Kevlar, or some other damage resistant material is the best choice to go with, since even if the outer suit is breached, the interior will still be protected.

    Creating a suit that perfectly blocks out the sun, doesn't sound that hard, either. I mean, can you honestly tell me that your own home is 100% shielded from the elements like an environmental suit would be?

    Probably not, and yet vampires are still able to fortify their Havens enough to keep the sun out. All it takes is some wooden planks over the windows and they can rest for 12 hours in comfort. So creating a full body suit that can do the same should be much easier than it sounds.

    The big question then becomes not "if" the vampires could design something like that, but "why" they have yet to do so.
    You make very good points.

    As for the difficulty to make the suit and it's resilience, I actually want to make it vague enough that PCs don't feel comfortable using it. There has to be an element of risk and unknown.
    As far as I can tell you have to have a pretty well light proofed haven or use a ritual like consecrate the sacred haven in order to spend the day safely. But that may depend on the ST.

    For your second point, I was reading New York by Night for inspiration and they mention that a mere apprentice created the path of technomancy without much trouble.
    Why didn't any older thaumaturgy luminaries do it before her?
    Bacause elder vamps are set in their ways and have trouble adapting to the tech world that exists in the Modern Nights.

    Besides that, as far as I can tell, the characters created by WW in the fluff have mostly a background in the occult, humanities, finance and art more that in classic sciences like physics, chemistry and so forth.

    The last reason I can find is that I see neonates as what the name suggests : Newborns. And as they grow into a new worldview, they are a bit like the baby elephant that tries to get free from the chain tied to a stake driven into the ground. He tries so much without success that he becomes so convinced that it's impossible that he doesn't even try when grown.

    You'd have to be MAD to try it !

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by DuncanD View Post
    Another Macguffin i'm thinking about adding is the daylight ammo from the Underworld. It would be very rare (irradiated fluid) and expensive but it would keep player on their toes when thinking about just ramming through human NPCs. One of the characters will be a mob boss inspired from Jim Butcher's Dresden Chronicles Johnny Marcone and he will have a gun with daylight and silver ammo.
    I'd recommend having some sort of Hedge Mage/Faithful to create the ammo rather than having a purely science answer. Hedge mage could enchant it with sunlight, Faithful being Holy Water or Blessed silver. Even a garou/Kinfolk that is technically creating talens from Helios spirits.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by DuncanD View Post

    Actually, this idea is me having a brainstorming attack from someone mentioning v5 "sunbags" on discord. I always had an issues with the low tech world in Vampire, so this has been a kind of trigger for me.
    By the same token, I'd assimilate a hole in a sunsuit to the effect of an airborne extremely corrosive compound (or very active biological agent) would have on an operator wearing a compromised hazmat suit while having lost positive pressure.

    If PCs want to use these suits the'd have to treat them like a pilot that checks his plane and soldiers that do a buddy check before an airdrop. I'm not thinking about causing issues very often but if they do not check the suits, shit will happen.

    Did i say UV ammo and silver ammo will be a thing? Yes it will

    Well, remember, the purpose of the suit is to block out sunlight, and that's really the only thing that it absolutely needs to do. Vampires are impervious to most other forms of environmental hazards and biological contaminates. I think the previous idea about reinforcing the suit with Kevlar, or some other damage resistant material is the best choice to go with, since even if the outer suit is breached, the interior will still be protected.

    Creating a suit that perfectly blocks out the sun, doesn't sound that hard, either. I mean, can you honestly tell me that your own home is 100% shielded from the elements like an environmental suit would be?

    Probably not, and yet vampires are still able to fortify their Havens enough to keep the sun out. All it takes is some wooden planks over the windows and they can rest for 12 hours in comfort. So creating a full body suit that can do the same should be much easier than it sounds.

    The big question then becomes not "if" the vampires could design something like that, but "why" they have yet to do so.

    Leave a comment:


  • DuncanD
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post



    1 - Huh... they seemed perfectly harmless in the Bloodlines game, which first introduced me to Masquerade.


    2 - I'm skeptical on the part about minor wear and tear being an issue. We know this is true for normal hazmat suits, because of the threat of decompression, temperature changes, flooding, est. But if the purpose of the suit is just to block out sunlight, then a tiny little hole probably won't result in the vampire exploding into ashes. Especially not if it's got multiple layers of protection to it.


    3 - Right, I think I missed that.
    Actually, this idea is me having a brainstorming attack from someone mentioning v5 "sunbags" on discord. I always had an issues with the low tech world in Vampire, so this has been a kind of trigger for me.
    By the same token, I'd assimilate a hole in a sunsuit to the effect of an airborne extremely corrosive compound (or very active biological agent) would have on an operator wearing a compromised hazmat suit while having lost positive pressure.

    If PCs want to use these suits the'd have to treat them like a pilot that checks his plane and soldiers that do a buddy check before an airdrop. I'm not thinking about causing issues very often but if they do not check the suits, shit will happen.

    Did i say UV ammo and silver ammo will be a thing? Yes it will

    Leave a comment:


  • DuncanD
    replied
    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
    Just for clarity's sake, UV lamps do hurt some vampires.

    The problem, as noted, isn't that one can't use extreme cover to stay safe. Just that things like staying awake (not sure how it works in V5, but it was really tough in V20 and capped your dice pool), fear frenzy (seeing the sun at day will probably still cause frenzy) and inherent risk (your suit can still get torn open easily enough).

    Which is why they specifically noted using exterior cameras instead of a visor.
    Actually, these drawbacks are actually adding to the usefulness of the suit story wise as the characters have to make the calculus and decide if they want to risk it or not.
    I'm thinking about adding an armoured version that would hamper mobility and provide protection against UV rounds. But that's for later, i'm just populating the setting now.
    I'm going for something between traditional v20 with some elements from underworld added in.
    The idea is to add tech that has advantages and drawbacks a bit like in a janken game and mostly to introduce uncertainty when dealing with regular humans (Johnny Marcone wouldn't take any shit from no licks, no sir!)

    Leave a comment:


  • DuncanD
    replied
    Originally posted by Theodrim View Post

    The quote you provided means the armor doesn't contribute soak dice versus fire (unless it's a fire suit) or sunlight. Making a light-proof suit is still possible; just because a vampire is wearing something does not mean sunlight magically makes it through when it otherwise would not.

    The practicality of such a thing would, as stated, be pretty dodgy. Its mere existence would be a Masquerade violation, let alone using it to operate in daytime, especially as is the case of fireproof suits it would provide no immunity to Rotshreck. A reduction in the difficulty roll, sure, but not immunity. The best-case scenario would be for use as an emergency fall-back in case of haven compromise, but in that case would likely still be impractical because the potential armor penalty to Dexterity, and Perception penalties for working blind or with compromised senses, would harm vampires' already-reduced dice pools for acting in daytime.
    I don't understand the masquerade violation issue. To any non informed human, it would just be some kind of military tech/stealth suit, I think.

    I don't actually want it to be super practical and it's mostly for the cool effect and to tempt players into operations where they might have to race the sun back to the haven or try and escape the have besieged by enemy ghouls. The only real issue I see would be the inequity to Gangrel characters pointed out by Nosimplehiway.

    Leave a comment:


  • DuncanD
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

    From the original post it was unclear to me whether DuncanD's reaction to a sunlight protection suit was: "OMG, how am I going to run my game with pcs running around during the day? This is terrible!" or "Wow! That is ten tons of awesome! I need that in my game, right now!"

    So, I gave both options.

    If you don't want such a suit, I offered a canon rule related to armor that makes it arguably not do-able raw. Also, the logistical issues of building a workshop in which to create the many different complex materials needed to build a suit which is fully opaque (not as simple as it sounds, as opacity is a matter of degrees), durable enough to out-perform the vampire's resistance to injury (what's the point of being immortal if stepping on a thumb-tack can kill you?), and flexible enough (especially at those very tricky joints and flexion points like the knees, elbows, fingers, and hips) to allow sufficent range of motion to accomplish whatever mission you're trying to complete.

    If, otoh, you do want such a suit... go ahead and houserule it in. Frankly, I was dubious until I saw the pictures of the suits you have in mind. "Rule of cool" is always a strong argument. And, those suits scream "cool".

    I would only caution, since you are STing for the first time, to be careful how you introduce the suit. If you present it as a MacGuffin that drives the plot in some way, that's fine. ("Who stole the suit?" "Why did the scientist stop developing it?" "Has the SI discovered a paper trail for the supplies needed for the suit's construction?" "Does this armored suit make my ass look big?") If, however, you simply hand it to the players as a solution to whatever is the main challenge they are dealing with this week, it could remove player agency. You're the ST, it's your job to present the storylines, themes, and conflicts... not the solutions.

    Also, consider how it impacts the economics of chagen. If I created a character as a Gangrel, and put all of my points into Fortitude and Protean so I could dare to risk operating near the sunrise, but the Ventrue of the coterie just had their assistant order a sun-proof suit from a website... well, as the player of a Gangrel pc, I'd be annoyed.
    Well, I was indeed going for the cool effect

    Actually, I'm thinking about setting the chronicle in New York by having the PCs arrive by boat or plane because they have been "rewarded" with the opportunity to make their havens in NYC, only to find out it was utter BS just to get rid of them. So they get sent to see the prince but she's busy, so is the Senechal and so forth until they get set the task to answer the request of a Malkavian scientist to whom the Prince owed a boon for his assistance in the battle for New York. They are to to help her/him with whatever he/she needed as *part* of the price for coming to NYC and not be turned to ash immediately.

    I was thinking about having the scientist send them on errands for materials with fuzzy explanations (that would allow me to have them go around and discover the geography and meet people - and maybe kill them )

    The suit would be discovered by the players if they played their cards right but it's value would have to be deduced and they would have to decide to try it out or maybe the scientist would lock them in a individual cell with a magnificent view to the east and a suit in the wardrobe...

    I hadn't thought about the frenzy risk but it makes the suit more usable in the story by being less useful to the PCs as they have to decide if the risk is worth it.

    I'm actually just building the NPCs and creating locations for now but I wanted to try and project the chronicle in a more "realistic" world a bit like "the Dark Knight" did for Batman without going full second inquisition yet. I might go there once lorewise when i get the 5th edition book but i'll stay on v20 for the time being. The idea is to populate the world with as many interesting NPCs as I can as well as MacGuffins to then start mixing them for the scenario.

    Another Macguffin i'm thinking about adding is the daylight ammo from the Underworld. It would be very rare (irradiated fluid) and expensive but it would keep player on their toes when thinking about just ramming through human NPCs. One of the characters will be a mob boss inspired from Jim Butcher's Dresden Chronicles Johnny Marcone and he will have a gun with daylight and silver ammo.

    I didn't think about the Gangrel issue you mentioned, damn... But the characters will either be exported from the chronicle we are playing if still alive at the end or freshly created with the same experience so maybe it won't be an issue, especially since the player running the Gangrel in the coterie hasn't been using their protean like that at all...

    I'm really grateful to all the answers to this post and my previous ones as they helped me to see how to build this chronicle how i want it but by keeping the spirit of the game (people die and they'll hard choices). Thank You !

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by Monalfie View Post
    Just for clarity's sake, UV lamps do hurt some vampires.

    The problem, as noted, isn't that one can't use extreme cover to stay safe. Just that things like staying awake (not sure how it works in V5, but it was really tough in V20 and capped your dice pool), fear frenzy (seeing the sun at day will probably still cause frenzy) and inherent risk (your suit can still get torn open easily enough).

    Which is why they specifically noted using exterior cameras instead of a visor.


    1 - Huh... they seemed perfectly harmless in the Bloodlines game, which first introduced me to Masquerade.


    2 - I'm skeptical on the part about minor wear and tear being an issue. We know this is true for normal hazmat suits, because of the threat of decompression, temperature changes, flooding, est. But if the purpose of the suit is just to block out sunlight, then a tiny little hole probably won't result in the vampire exploding into ashes. Especially not if it's got multiple layers of protection to it.


    3 - Right, I think I missed that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monalfie
    replied
    Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
    The problem is that you're thinking about this from a scientific point of view. If the threat of sunlight had a scientific origin to it, then why don't UV lamps cause vampires to burst into flames? They produce the same kind of light as the sun, don't they? Or how about the sunlight reflected off the surface of a full moon?
    Just for clarity's sake, UV lamps do hurt some vampires.

    No, a vampire's weakness to sunlight has some kind of mystical quality to it, and if the solution to the problem was as simple as just strapping themselves into an environmental suit, then the kindred would have figured it out a long time ago. Especially if they were Sabbat, given how they are so fixated on conquering the world of mortals.
    The problem, as noted, isn't that one can't use extreme cover to stay safe. Just that things like staying awake (not sure how it works in V5, but it was really tough in V20 and capped your dice pool), fear frenzy (seeing the sun at day will probably still cause frenzy) and inherent risk (your suit can still get torn open easily enough).

    Besides, any kind of visor that can shield the vampire from sunlight on the level that you're asking for would probably have to be as dark as a pair of eclipse glasses, which would leave the vampire incapable of seeing anything, unless they stared directly at the sun itself.
    Which is why they specifically noted using exterior cameras instead of a visor.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nyrufa
    replied
    Originally posted by DuncanD View Post
    Hello all,

    I read on a discord post that, in v5, vampires can take shelter from the sun by enclosing themselves in a "sunbag" which is supposed to be like a totally enclosed sleeping bag.

    Not having yet bought v5, can anyone that has please tell me if it truly is so?

    If it is then futuristic fully isolated and helmeted suits could do the same, no?

    I always found it odd that being in full darkness in a building would protect a vampire whereas a fully radiation isolated suit with video feeds for the sight would not.

    So this rumor is quite interesting as it opens a number of avenues for tech savvy characters to find opportunities in finding creative solutions to the sunlight issue.


    The problem is that you're thinking about this from a scientific point of view. If the threat of sunlight had a scientific origin to it, then why don't UV lamps cause vampires to burst into flames? They produce the same kind of light as the sun, don't they? Or how about the sunlight reflected off the surface of a full moon?

    No, a vampire's weakness to sunlight has some kind of mystical quality to it, and if the solution to the problem was as simple as just strapping themselves into an environmental suit, then the kindred would have figured it out a long time ago. Especially if they were Sabbat, given how they are so fixated on conquering the world of mortals.


    Besides, any kind of visor that can shield the vampire from sunlight on the level that you're asking for would probably have to be as dark as a pair of eclipse glasses, which would leave the vampire incapable of seeing anything, unless they stared directly at the sun itself.
    Last edited by Nyrufa; 11-13-2018, 11:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Originally posted by DuncanD View Post
    Hello all,

    I read on a discord post that, in v5, vampires can take shelter from the sun by enclosing themselves in a "sunbag" which is supposed to be like a totally enclosed sleeping bag.

    Not having yet bought v5, can anyone that has please tell me if it truly is so?

    If it is then futuristic fully isolated and helmeted suits could do the same, no?

    I always found it odd that being in full darkness in a building would protect a vampire whereas a fully radiation isolated suit with video feeds for the sight would not.

    So this rumor is quite interesting as it opens a number of avenues for tech savvy characters to find opportunities in finding creative solutions to the sunlight issue.
    From the original post it was unclear to me whether DuncanD's reaction to a sunlight protection suit was: "OMG, how am I going to run my game with pcs running around during the day? This is terrible!" or "Wow! That is ten tons of awesome! I need that in my game, right now!"

    So, I gave both options.

    If you don't want such a suit, I offered a canon rule related to armor that makes it arguably not do-able raw. Also, the logistical issues of building a workshop in which to create the many different complex materials needed to build a suit which is fully opaque (not as simple as it sounds, as opacity is a matter of degrees), durable enough to out-perform the vampire's resistance to injury (what's the point of being immortal if stepping on a thumb-tack can kill you?), and flexible enough (especially at those very tricky joints and flexion points like the knees, elbows, fingers, and hips) to allow sufficent range of motion to accomplish whatever mission you're trying to complete.

    If, otoh, you do want such a suit... go ahead and houserule it in. Frankly, I was dubious until I saw the pictures of the suits you have in mind. "Rule of cool" is always a strong argument. And, those suits scream "cool".

    I would only caution, since you are STing for the first time, to be careful how you introduce the suit. If you present it as a MacGuffin that drives the plot in some way, that's fine. ("Who stole the suit?" "Why did the scientist stop developing it?" "Has the SI discovered a paper trail for the supplies needed for the suit's construction?" "Does this armored suit make my ass look big?") If, however, you simply hand it to the players as a solution to whatever is the main challenge they are dealing with this week, it could remove player agency. You're the ST, it's your job to present the storylines, themes, and conflicts... not the solutions.

    Also, consider how it impacts the economics of chagen. If I created a character as a Gangrel, and put all of my points into Fortitude and Protean so I could dare to risk operating near the sunrise, but the Ventrue of the coterie just had their assistant order a sun-proof suit from a website... well, as the player of a Gangrel pc, I'd be annoyed.

    Leave a comment:

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