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White Wolf issues apology for new books, pursuing “change in leadership”

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  • Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

    Yeah, I'm less concerned with a perhaps poorly conceived or executed passage in the book than I am with the people who think it's no big deal or prioritise an abstract value of universal free speech over or have misplaced ideas about who is and isn't a discriminated minority.
    I do agree entirely, I don’t mean too imply I don’t.
    I more wanted to add my thoughts on exposure and discussion of difficult ideas and that people getting that wrong and being harmful being the issue, not approaching these issues at all.

    I find far too often this situation goes something like this:
    "This is problematic"
    "Its free speech"
    "Yeah but its shit"
    "Stop trying to take free speech away"
    "No I want to keep free speech, just have people be more responsible with it"

    And it grinds my gears to no end that this style of discussion. Keeps. Happening. All. The. Time.

    And that's just the "on topic" issue I have. The other issues that crop up, like saying that inherent unchangeable biological traits like race and chosen ideology’s that can be changed at any time like political stances are both on the same level for criticism baffles and angers me.

    Overall, I just want people to look at what makes them upset, why other people being upset makes them upset, and try not to fall into rhetorical traps and analyse these problems in the constituent parts and the whole, not just one or the other and then making grossly inaccurate comparisons.


    Find my Homebrew so far here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing
    So far its Demon Merits, Vampire 1e to 2e ports and a Knowledge collection mechanic for the Ordo Dracul!

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      The lack of the information on the editing issues for one or confirming with the writer is a big deal.
      While that is interesting information to understand how it came up; It's not like that info has been released in a press statement from White Wolf.
      "Polygon has reached out for clarification and further details, but no response has been offered." They're offering an opportunity for that info to come out.

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        The lack of the information on the editing issues for one or confirming with the writer is a big deal.
        Originally posted by Illithid View Post
        While that is interesting information to understand how it came up; It's not like that info has been released in a press statement from White Wolf.
        "Polygon has reached out for clarification and further details, but no response has been offered." They're offering an opportunity for that info to come out.
        ...yeah I was about to say:

        I admit that I don't follow a whole lot of TRPG news sites (nvm that TRPG journalism is nowhere near the same level compared to video games journalism), but I haven't heard a lot of other official sites distributing that factoid.

        So far, you're the only person I've heard it from, CTPhipps. Not that I disbelieve you, but to anyone else it's the word of just the one fan on the interwebs where anyone could say anything.
        Last edited by tasti man LH; 11-15-2018, 08:45 PM. Reason: Wrong term used

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        • I'll reach out to the author to talk to Polygon.

          The issue is that he's afraid of being doxxed so he's been cagey in admitting he wrote the section.

          Also about his friend's safety, though that may be being paranoid, the fact they live in Russia means it's not necessarily paranoid (in the manner of "if they're really out to get you") given this is in the news.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Unfortunately, it wouldn't be considered paranoia in most of the world right now. Even in "First World" countries, it's still an issue.

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            • https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thre....836416/page-2

              Anyone want to share their thoughts with the wonderful folks at RPG.net are welcome to do so.

              Alas, I was banned for sharing Game of Thrones spoilers...from the trailer for the next episode.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                Could I just ask, as open questions:
                • How many people were aware of the situation for the LGBT community in Chechnya before it was highlighted in the Camarilla book - and by extension what you were doing about it?
                • What is the fundamental distinction between White Wolf's use of supernatural fiction to highlight this situation, and the manner in which Black Sabbath referred to the Vietnam War being run by 'witches at black masses'?
                1. It was a segment on one of the US late night TV shows, so quite a few I'd imagine. It's also been a news story in Russian and others outlets.
                2. Black Sabbath didn't claim that Vietnam War is a witch psyop meant to make the US Government look bad.

                This is the part that really rustles my jimmies. Not that it says vampires are killing gay people, but that it says the actual real life perpetrators are being artificially made look bad. The equivalent here isn't "nazis are demons". The equivalent is "holocaust is fake news to fool you into thinking nazis were bad".

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                • Originally posted by Kammerer View Post

                  1. It was a segment on one of the US late night TV shows, so quite a few I'd imagine. It's also been a news story in Russian and others outlets.
                  2. Black Sabbath didn't claim that Vietnam War is a witch psyop meant to make the US Government look bad.

                  This is the part that really rustles my jimmies. Not that it says vampires are killing gay people, but that it says the actual real life perpetrators are being artificially made look bad. The equivalent here isn't "nazis are demons". The equivalent is "holocaust is fake news to fool you into thinking nazis were bad".
                  1. That's an assumption. Speak for yourself, and don't assume that people watch the same thing as you do. Also, if you did know, as part of the second part of the question, what were you doing about it?
                  2. It was a metaphor that imagined generals as 'witches at black masses' doing 'sorcery'. In fact, it doesn't directly mention Vietnam or Nixon or anything specific - but the target of the metaphor is pretty clear.

                  And this is the point really. At what point can people draw the line at what allegories and metaphors can be used in the context of real world events? It should still be considered that the piece itself was written in character - literally as a vampire's perspective. To criticise the perspective that vampires were behind any even is irrelevant - it is a work of fiction and they patently don't.

                  It is not the uequivelant of saying the holcaust is false news, it is presenting real world events in the context of a fictional world where vampires exist. It does not say that, in the real world, the event is fake - big misconception going on with this, unless you believe that vampires actually exist in the real world too. To claim it is the same as holocaust denial is a total misrepresentation - because the intent is clearly to draw attention to real world events, through the medium of a storytelling game. People who deny the holocaust, literally say it didn't happen in the real world.
                  Last edited by Trippy; 11-15-2018, 10:57 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                    And this is the point really. At what point can people draw the line at what allegories and metaphors can be used in the context of real world events? It should still be considered that the piece itself was written in character - literally as a vampire's perspective. To criticise the perspective that vampires were behind any even is irrelevant - it is a work of fiction and they patently don't.
                    Obviously the line is a hard one to find and impossible to balance to get no-one offended.
                    The fact that it has become an issue globally (Above sited journalists and sites; and check out one lower too) rather than just on a related forum where a lot of discussions become heated arguments is telling that they were way off.
                    When discussing "In Character Perspective" there is still some obligation to question what is being written and why.
                    If you have a racist character, that doesn't save a publication from criticism of racism, the writer/editor etc put that in.
                    In this case, where the editor changed it from first to third person; the section reads more like a description of the situation in the setting than a character's perspective. So even if the defence of "Character Perspective" was a solid defence; I don't think it can apply completely here.

                    And look at where this has got them -
                    http://handofmoscow.com/2018/11/16/c...sultan-ramzan/
                    "The press Secretary of the head of the Chechen Republic Alvi Karimov said that the creators of the game “decided to appear on the popularity of Chechnya and its leadership.” He stressed that a continuation of the information war to demonize Republic. According to TASS, Chechnya considering the possibility of litigation with developers."

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                    • Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                      And look at where this has got them -
                      http://handofmoscow.com/2018/11/16/c...sultan-ramzan/
                      "The press Secretary of the head of the Chechen Republic Alvi Karimov said that the creators of the game “decided to appear on the popularity of Chechnya and its leadership.” He stressed that a continuation of the information war to demonize Republic. According to TASS, Chechnya considering the possibility of litigation with developers."
                      Pissing off the actual, stuck in the 1200s scumbags who run Chechyna can only be a good thing. If the Nazis are not afforded the courtesty of respect, why should these people?

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                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        The lack of the information on the editing issues for one or confirming with the writer is a big deal.
                        I know this keeps coming up. By this isn't really about blaming a single author. At least to me it isn't. It's about the company as a whole failing. The writer had to write it, the developer had to see it, and the editor had to re-work it.

                        1) The writer alllegedly wrote the section different.
                        2) Ken Hite apparently said on twitter he didn't develop that piece of writing.
                        3) Has the editor commented on this at all?

                        But still this cannot be the only three people having looked at this. If it's really an unsupervised editor and not the developers doing final reviews on a book to be published, then some processes at WW are seriously flawed. That's why I wouldn't waste time on singling out a single responsible, but instead see the whole company as culpable regarding the publication.

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                        • BTW if anyone questions the whole editing thing, here's the evidence:

                          1. The book opens with the Banu Haqim character's quote.
                          2. Most of the chapter continues with the same "voice" praising the regime.
                          3. There's sections where it's suddenly incredibly critical.
                          4. It's weird having 3rd person text with such loud "personality" and "opinions" about a massive fascist dictatorship.
                          5. The editing in the book is terrible, haphazard, and poor.
                          6. An author of the book has come out and said it.

                          I suppose a better term than editing is it was REWRITTEN and done so in a very poor way. Also, if anyone doubts this kind of thing happens then they haven't been in professional writing.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • That's not really evidence at all.


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                            • Yikes...got this from the author.

                              They sent me this image and statement.



                              White Wolf distributor in Moscow has been called into court in Chechnya. Will be forced to give names or they go to jail.
                              He also asks for people to stop looking for their identity.

                              Which, guys, I don't think is impossible to find out (or even that hard given the book is attributed and some basic fact checking) but I think we should respect those wishes as what's "known" is different from what's stated. I'm going to respect the desire even if I don't know if it's going to help (and think he should just get out of the area).

                              I hope he's just being paranoid.

                              I regret drawing attention to the issue with my review and petition.
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-16-2018, 11:32 AM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                                Could I just ask, as open questions:
                                • How many people were aware of the situation for the LGBT community in Chechnya before it was highlighted in the Camarilla book - and by extension what you were doing about it?
                                Not sure how many people know about it but I can say me and my wife did not know about it and no-one I have talked to thus far about these conversations have known about it. Granted that was only been four or five people. This situation was made aware to us through this book and since then we have been trying to find a charitable and reputable organization to donate to since we personally can not do anything to help but help fund those who can, and I have donated to irusa.org and hope others will to. They seem to be doing some good work.

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