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Necromancy,Obtenebration, Onlivion, Salubri and Capadocians...

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  • Necromancy,Obtenebration, Onlivion, Salubri and Capadocians...

    I was looking at the Q&A, which was very great. Thank you for doing it.

    One thing got my attention: TGG said, if i remember correctly, that the new oblivion discipline was quite connected as Giovanni and Lasombra both share two disciplines Dominate and Potence. Will this set a rule that clans which share the same disciplines share an amalgated form of their unique disciplines? For example, Salubri and Capadocians (Hecata?) both share Auspex and Fortitude. Their Necromancy/Valeran/Obeah powers is what made them unique. Will this be a new necro-healing-protective power?






  • #2
    Nope. My point was the Hecata and Lasombra won't share the same Discipline list. Sorry that didn't come across.


    Matthew Dawkins
    In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing

    ~Hapax Legomenon~

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    • #3
      You cannot imagine what a peace of mind you just gave me with this sentence, Gentleman ^^
      I hope Oblivion will not link the abyss to the underworld, because frankly, all precedent representations of the abyss came more like 'shoggoth in the dark" than "the ungrateful dead shadows"...

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      • #4
        Whilst i'm very interested to see what it all looks like when we have access to it all, i'm not particularly fussed by conflating the Abyss and the deadlands Oblivion. In my mind the two have always gone hand in hand anyway - the Oblivion has always seemed to have a malevolent purpose and a mind of it's own, as well as a desire to consume all. It's similar to the entropic force that the Wyrm became, and again i can see how they all boil down to the same power ultimately, even if the Deadlands and the Umbra, as well as the types of spirits within are different.

        Part of me would want to keep the Necromantic parts of Oblivion only available to the Giovanni/Hecata/whatever they turn out as, and the Shadow/abyssal control aligned to the Lasombra so as to keep them with seperate identities and spheres of influence. I also don't see the Lasombra as being interested in the Dead - making dead perhaps, but bored of you after that. I have no issue with Oblivion being the Discipline that the Giovanni mined for inspiration when they made they're quest for Clanhood - the two obviously share a common element, the Giovanni just figured out how to do something more utilitarian to there interests than what was previously available. To be honest, its similar to my head canon version of Necromancy spawning itself out of the ashes of Mortis in the dark ages - sure, i know they're different, but thematically i can see how one led to the other.

        Anyway, i really hope we see enough details in the CbN previews to point us in the right direction - if for no other reason that the V5 Chronicle i'm running set in New Orleans will be having quite a lot to do with the clans of Death in one shape or another - as such i selfishly want to know as much as possible so that i have to do less retconning when it becomes official.

        Also from that response from TGG, i think it's fair to guess that the Hecata aren't just Giovanni with a new name! Smart money is on the classic spread of Auspex, Fortitude and Oblivion!

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        • #5
          Given we've seen it that clans will have unique powers specific to those clans alone (e.g. Eyes of the Serpent and Banu Haqim rituals) I think it's fair to say we'll see similar between the Lasombra and Hecata depending on their focus


          "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Darthpalpy View Post
            You cannot imagine what a peace of mind you just gave me with this sentence, Gentleman ^^
            I hope Oblivion will not link the abyss to the underworld, because frankly, all precedent representations of the abyss came more like 'shoggoth in the dark" than "the ungrateful dead shadows"...
            The Abyss was already linked in some fashion to the Underworld... paring down the number of places of primordial darkness from before the light" seems like par for the course for 5e.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
              Nope. My point was the Hecata and Lasombra won't share the same Discipline list. Sorry that didn't come across.

              Thank you, Sir.

              I must have misunderstood you, but with the loss of Serpentis and Quietus, i was afraid. I have always loved my Salubri and my Lasombra.

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              • #8
                Then what will be the difference between a genuine Lasombra Abyss Mystic and a Hecata (if it's even a possibility) ? If both tend more toward rituals than powers, the set of rituals available will need to be quite differentiated.
                Of course, if most of the summons of the Abyss Mystic are linked to wraiths or specters, or if the "Abyss mystic" is just a nickname for the Lasombra.... (the fusion of obtenebration and necromancy doesn't sit well with me, sorry...).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Darthpalpy View Post
                  Then what will be the difference between a genuine Lasombra Abyss Mystic and a Hecata (if it's even a possibility) ? If both tend more toward rituals than powers, the set of rituals available will need to be quite differentiated.
                  Of course, if most of the summons of the Abyss Mystic are linked to wraiths or specters, or if the "Abyss mystic" is just a nickname for the Lasombra.... (the fusion of obtenebration and necromancy doesn't sit well with me, sorry...).
                  I think there will be plenty different between an Abyssal Mystic and Hecata, unless you think there's not much different between Tremere and the Banu Haqim Sorcerer.

                  Also, I always chuckle when the thread that gets necro'd was literally a discussion about Necromancy


                  "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

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                  • #10
                    unless you think there's not much different between Tremere and the Banu Haqim Sorcerer
                    Do believe me when I say that I know full well how different are Tremere and BH, and in the same time Lasombra & Hecata. That's the crux of it. For me, the flavor for the clans as conveyed by the many splats is indeed quite different and for the one we are talking about, quite interesting.
                    But as of now (We'll see in the future how this will develop), rule wise, I fail to see this separation. For the example of BH & Tremere, I feel both lost a lot of variety from a rule POV, when in the same time they did gain a lot of variety flavor-wise (which I love ^^). This inadequation between rules and flavor (or crunch vs fluff, if you want) is what's bothering me the most.

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                    • #11
                      Whats the difference in previous edition between two Gangrel? In previous editions it would mainly be in skill set and discipline choice. V5 also adds to this mix power choice giving two characters of similar fluff and disciplines more differences even within the same clan. As we continue to get even more powers to choose from we will see even more diversity and that is not even starting to add in rituals, backgrounds and such. As we continue to grow in the new edition we will start to see more and more. It is early in the edition and we haven't seen the rituals associated with Oblivion yet but we will and they will have more opportunity for divergence. or similarity if the player chooses to build them that way. Players have more choices in their build which I think is a good thing.

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                      • #12
                        In our group, we've been discussing the nature of the Abyss, and have established that it is a form of Vampiric Purgatory. The creatures of the Abyss as the tormented, fractured souls of vampires and other creatures of the night. This connection between Obtenebration and Necromancy in Oblivion fits well with that idea.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                          Nope. My point was the Hecata and Lasombra won't share the same Discipline list. Sorry that didn't come across.
                          Oh so they don’t have the same starting options but could master the other list with the proper teachers, or they treat the other list as different discipline?


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SarcasticJazzHands View Post
                            In our group, we've been discussing the nature of the Abyss, and have established that it is a form of Vampiric Purgatory. The creatures of the Abyss as the tormented, fractured souls of vampires and other creatures of the night. This connection between Obtenebration and Necromancy in Oblivion fits well with that idea.
                            This fits well with my personal headcanon! Since Vampire don’t normally leave ghosts but they sometimes do, and we know they are damned, and we know Demons want to snag the souls for themselves, I wanted them to have their own Hell and the Abyss is just that. It also shines a new light on the bigger fish of the Abyss.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              This fits well with my personal headcanon! Since Vampire don’t normally leave ghosts but they sometimes do, and we know they are damned, and we know Demons want to snag the souls for themselves, I wanted them to have their own Hell and the Abyss is just that. It also shines a new light on the bigger fish of the Abyss.
                              Very cool!

                              My wife and I were discussing this more in depth last night. She wrote up a whole pseudo-in character treatise about the Abyss for her character.

                              We are kinda picturing the Abyss as a greater Umbra style set up. There is the Near Abyss, where placed like Stygia and the other kingdoms are carved out, The Labyrinth and other Shadow Land places. Then deeper in the Abyss are places were monster fear to tread, where the Demons were locked up and things like that.

                              Oh hell... I just came up with something...

                              So in my Tucson by night game I have going on, we have a Lasombra Antitribu whose great grand sire is currently banished to the Abyss for his over-reaching use of True Faith. I was planning on having some events that would weaken the barrier between the physical world and the Abyss. I could tie that into the emergences and resurgence of the Demons and the 6th great maelstrom. I needed some cataclysmic event to occur in the '90s to wrap up the V20 version of the game to present the time skip for us to start playing a modern day campaign in V5 style. The cataclysm would help account for the difference in powers and the new systems like Blood Potency and Predators.

                              So maybe instead of the Week of Nightmares, Zapthura and the spirit nukes, the warding seal on earth is broken, temporarily shattering the barrier and allowing the Abyss to open into the physical world. The Demons and such were the most prepared for such an event and were able to take advantage of that quickest before the seals and barriers were fixed. Hrm… so many ideas....

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