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Possible Hecata Discipline Spread

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  • Imthestein
    started a topic Possible Hecata Discipline Spread

    Possible Hecata Discipline Spread

    I was discussing with someone the other day about a misunderstanding about whether Oblivion was a combination of Obtenebration and Necromancy or not brought upon, I think, by the below thread. In the thread below there's a debate about the Discipline Spread which I believe is due to both the Lasombra and Giovanni, due to this change, both having Dominate, Potence, and Oblivion. So the discussion was about whether the Hecata were going to have the same Discipline Spread as Lasombra.

    http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...CNmtL_Uq_gh5gs

    This got me thinking differently about how the Hecata were going to be treated. I originally assumed they would have Auspex, Fortitude, Oblivion much like the Cappadocians. Many assumed the same thing, but now I think it's going to be Dominate, Fortitude, Oblivion. This means they get the Dominate from the Giovanni and replace the Auspex of the Cappadocians and they get the Fortitude of the Cappadocians and replace the Potence of the Giovanni.

    Part of the reason I think this will be what they go with has to do also with the other groups attached to the Clan of Death. You would have the Dominate of the Nagaraja and the Fortitude of the Samedi. This way no one gets their exact same Discipline Spread but everyone keeps most of their Discipline Spread. I'm curious what everyone else thinks about this. I'd rather keep Auspex but this would be the best compromise I think.

  • Robert D
    replied
    Interesting Amalgam possibilities in several of the Hecata options of this thread
    Oblivion power requiring Dominate 1 could be Compel Ghost
    Auspex power requiring Oblivion 1 could be something along the lines of Ghost in the Machine for Obfuscate, that allows existing Auspex powers of Scry the Soul, Share the Senses, Possession and Telepathy to effect ghosts as well as humans or vampires or werewolves or fae (the last two are implied in my mind from Scry the Soul) at no extra cost.
    Last edited by Robert D; 12-23-2018, 05:50 AM.

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  • Imthestein
    replied
    Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post
    I hope it is Black Friday but I thought they where doing Kindred Part 7 then.

    It would be interesting if they didn't have a physical at all and went Auspex/Dominate/Oblivion. That would be something very interesting.
    Ok, I'm laughing about that because it's basically the Nagaraja which I always viewed as the Necromantic version of the Tremere lol.

    As for Kindred Part 7, they said there are 3 final mauscript sneak peaks, one tomorrow, one Saturday, and one Monday. So technically nothing is expected on Friday, I'm just holding out an arbitrary hope that it's a surprise. I have absolutely nothing to base it on though. We know tomorrow is something about Lasombra but I think that's the Kindred part 7 that details the Lasombra and I have no idea what is due on Saturday and that could be when Oblivion is detailed for all I know. So likely you're right and it's going to be Monday we see Oblivion.

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  • Redwulfe
    replied
    I hope it is Black Friday but I thought they where doing Kindred Part 7 then.

    It would be interesting if they didn't have a physical at all and went Auspex/Dominate/Oblivion. That would be something very interesting.

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  • Imthestein
    replied
    I reread Sense the Unseen and I realized now I had misread the power. I thought I had read it as saying it was only physical entities hiding in plain sight but it does imply something like a Wraith could be viewed even if it didn't explicitly say it. That being said, even in previous editions both Auspex and Necromancy were able to see ghosts but Necromancy was able to see the Shadowlands itself whereas Auspex only saw the Wraith that was present.

    The idea that Necromancy did not work on wraiths at all is rather strange to me I have to admit. I mean, Necromancy certainly wouldn't allow you to see the Aura of the Wraith, but I think allowing you to see a Wraith in the Shadowlands is certainly something Necromancy could do. Even in V20 it specifically says for Shroudsight, "Shroudsight allows a necromancer to see through the Shroud, the mystical barrier that separates the living world from the Underworld. By using this power, the vampire can spot ghostly buildings and items, the landscape of the so-called Shadowlands, and even wraiths themselves. However, an observant wraith my notice when a vampire suddenly starts staring at him, which can lead to unpleasant consequences."

    As for finding out Monday, I think that's just the Lasombra writeup itself, but I'm still holding hope that we'll see Oblivion on "Black Friday" lol. That being said, just because we'll be seeing Oblivion doesn't mean we'll be seeing all of the Necromantic powers relating to it. I have a feeling we'll see some Necromancy powers but it will primarily focus on the Obtenebration powers due to its relevance to the Lasombra.

    I could accept your suggestion for Auspex/Potence, but I think if Giovanni wanted to keep one Discipline between Dominate and Potence they would choose Dominate. I'm definitely eager for us both to find out though.

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  • Redwulfe
    replied
    I think it is safe to say that the way powers work in V5 can change and we don't know what the Hecata will have for a spread of favored Disciplines. Hecata could have Auspex especially with sense the unseen being able to see ghost in V5 and possession moving from dominate to Auspex. You could interact with ghosts on the astral plane before with Auspex and that power has been removed in V5. Psychic Projection was something that I think muddied the cosmology of WoD and caused CoD to create Twighlight in their cosmology to clarify it a bit so I don't mind them removing it.

    The terms wraith and Ghost can be used interchangeably as they have been on many occasions in WoD's previous editions. One example is on page 384 in the V20 book. This is not the only one it is just the first I have found.

    The use of these words being treated as exclusive led to a poor ruling in a game that I was in where the ST declared that Necromancy did not work on wraths at all.

    His basic premiss was Necromancy did not specifically say wraiths in the MET book. Instead said spirits and in the Dark ages table top books it said that necromancy was developed for use on ghosts. Hence his ruling even though the clanbook mentioned many wraiths that the Giovanni controlled.

    Though speculation is fine I think that it is safe in saying that Auspex does see Wraiths. It only mentioning Ghosts does not mean it is exclusive or the terms are not used interchangeably.

    My guess is Auspex/Potence or Fortitude/Oblivion for their power spread.

    The first level of Sepulcher, Witness of Death, is just Sense the Unseen in Auspex. So it can be removed. Lifeless Tongues, from ash path, becomes the second first level power of Oblivion allowing you to speak across the shroud into the Oblivion, The rest of secondary abilities are the powers that death directly with the denizens of Underworld and I think would be the following:

    1. Lifeless Tongues
    2. Summon Soul
    3. Compel Soul
    4. Dead Hand and Torment combined.
    5. Combination of Shroud mastery and Ex Nihilo. Basically being able to cross if you Critically win.

    The rest of Sepulcher and Ash path could go away reducing the overall powers and focusing Oblivion on pulling and pushing across the shroud into and out of the underworld. The other necromantic paths, especially bone, can be more effective as rituals instead with a power or maybe two from Cenotaph being an Auspex/Oblivion Amalgam.

    But those are just my thoughts. We will know more on Monday.
    Last edited by Redwulfe; 11-21-2018, 04:01 PM.

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  • Imthestein
    replied
    Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post

    It doesn't have to the list is not exhaustive.
    If they do get Auspex I think we'll see that power as an Amalgam power, but it seems more likely to just be an Oblivion power given Giovanni don't have Auspex in clan.

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  • Redwulfe
    replied
    Originally posted by Imthestein View Post
    If you look at Auspex there is nothing there that specifically states you can see Wraiths. In any case, they have Necromancy (Oblivion) still so they would use that to see Wraiths anyway. But I definitely would love to see Auspex remain, I just don't think it's likely to happen.
    It doesn't have to the list is not exhaustive.

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  • Imthestein
    replied
    Originally posted by Robert D View Post
    That does look like the best compromise, but still I'd hazard to suggest that Auspex would be kept from the Cappadocians instead, since it would allow the ability to see ghosts at level 1.
    If you look at Auspex there is nothing there that specifically states you can see Wraiths. In any case, they have Necromancy (Oblivion) still so they would use that to see Wraiths anyway. But I definitely would love to see Auspex remain, I just don't think it's likely to happen.

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  • Robert D
    replied
    That does look like the best compromise, but still I'd hazard to suggest that Auspex would be kept from the Cappadocians instead, since it would allow the ability to see ghosts at level 1.

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  • Imthestein
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
    Banu Haqim castes are purely cultural now. Part of a move to level out all the variant bloodlines within clans, which I approve of. But that doesn’t mean the Hecata won’t be an exception to that. Depends if they’re coalescing into more of a single clan or more of a mini sect.

    Also, while V5 isn’t really retconning setting stuff, mechanics is fair game, and no clan is guaranteed to have the same favored disciplines as before. I do expect the Giovanni spread will not be what we see, though, if only to keep the Hecata distinct from the Lasombra.
    Yeah, that's how I took the castes to be now and frankly it's one of my greatest praises for the new Banu Haqim. I never took any of this as retconning so much as cleaning up.

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  • Black Flag
    replied
    Banu Haqim castes are purely cultural now. Part of a move to level out all the variant bloodlines within clans, which I approve of. But that doesn’t mean the Hecata won’t be an exception to that. Depends if they’re coalescing into more of a single clan or more of a mini sect.

    Also, while V5 isn’t really retconning setting stuff, mechanics is fair game, and no clan is guaranteed to have the same favored disciplines as before. I do expect the Giovanni spread will not be what we see, though, if only to keep the Hecata distinct from the Lasombra.

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  • Imthestein
    replied
    Originally posted by emmameta View Post
    You could also handle it the way the Assamite castes were handled. This is the default, but Lazarenes get this, and Giovanni get this, and so forth.
    Were the castes in V5 listed somewhere as having Discipline Spreads? It's my understanding in V5 they got rid of that. It's also my understanding Hecata is more of an umbrella term and I suspect is more reflective of a change for those that agree to join. Though the exact method for their group is still rather vague

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  • emmameta
    replied
    You could also handle it the way the Assamite castes were handled. This is the default, but Lazarenes get this, and Giovanni get this, and so forth.
    Last edited by emmameta; 11-17-2018, 05:22 PM.

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  • Imthestein
    replied
    It seems to me this makes it so every Necromancy Clan/Bloodline has 2/3 of their original Discipline Spread but no one gets more or less than that.

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