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Am I wrong how Blood Sorcery works?

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  • Am I wrong how Blood Sorcery works?

    A friend of mine said he hates the new V5 system because he says it destroyed Paths. I told him this:

    At the risk of pointing out the obvious but aren't you reading it completely wrong?

    The Paths didn't cease to exist via Retgone, they're now just unnecessary.

    Blood Sorcery 3 (Alternate Power) Telekinesis
    Blood Sorcery 3 (Alternate Power) Fireball
    Blood Sorcery 5 (Alternate Power) Hurricane

    Every Discipline now has Paths rather than Paths ceasing to exist. The difference is you don't need previous levels in it to have them.

    So your Tremere can learn the level 5 of Weather Control without having to have any other weather control powers but, maybe, Lure of the Flames or Telekinesis powers he likes.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

  • #2
    It kinda depends on your view point on a few things.

    The Alternate Power thing only really works if your primary focus is on Paths that really only do one thing (Lure of the Flames, Levinbolt, Movement of the Mind, etc.), because they're almost like the older physical Discipline: more dots is doing the same but better. For the Paths that worked more like normal Disciplines with a separate power for each level, the current rules are insufficient; you can only have five dots and five powers in Blood Sorcery. If I wanted to recreated a Tremere that mastered the Path of Blood and the Path of Mars... I can't do it with Blood Sorcery alone. I could, theoretically, use Blood Sorcery for the Path of Blood, and a bunch of Blood Sorcery + Dominate or Presence Amalgams for the Path of Mars to get the same basic results though.

    If all you care about is 'function' than Paths might be dead but it doesn't really matter because they've just been moved elsewhere. If you care about 'form' as well, then it's a problem because it becomes Blood Sorcery + a bunch of Amalgams instead of multiple Paths of Blood Sorcery. This also gets difficult because... what should be an Amalgam, and what should be an alternate power? Can something be both? If did a set of Path of Mars alternate powers instead of Path of Blood and I want one of the Path of Blood inspired V5 core Blood Sorcerer things... can I make an Amalgam to copy it?

    So you're sorta both right, but coming at things from a very different angle.

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    • #3
      Currently all Blood Sorcery powers are blood related but there's evidence other paths may find specific powers showing up as a ritual as in the case of flight (a variation on Movement on the Mind and a common use for the higher levels). I'd personally like to see the base Discipline powers remain blood related and have any other path power continue only showing up as a ritual.


      "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Imthestein View Post
        Currently all Blood Sorcery powers are blood related but there's evidence other paths may find specific powers showing up as a ritual as in the case of flight (a variation on Movement on the Mind and a common use for the higher levels). I'd personally like to see the base Discipline powers remain blood related and have any other path power continue only showing up as a ritual.
        I think that rituals would pretty much change the nature of some powers completely. Lure of the Flames is useless as a ritual because if you can't do it instantly then you can just use a lighter.

        I wouldn't mind if it was combined with other disciplines.

        Like Spirit Thaumaturgy would require Auspex


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          I think that rituals would pretty much change the nature of some powers completely. Lure of the Flames is useless as a ritual because if you can't do it instantly then you can just use a lighter.

          I wouldn't mind if it was combined with other disciplines.

          Like Spirit Thaumaturgy would require Auspex
          I could see Amalgam Powers being how they make it work. With the rituals I was more thinking those that would work as rituals. For Lure of the Flames it wouldn't be the entire path, much like how I specified the ability of Flight being made a ritual but being something you could use Movement of the Mind to do. Maybe with Lure of the Flames I would say Potence Amalgam power for Blood Sorcery, but I'd keep it simple like saying you could either try to ignite a single target into flames or ignite a room full of candles.


          "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

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          • #6
            My expectation is that paths are gone (there is zero evidence they exist now, and every other edition listed at least a few paths as examples) but that it leans more heavily on Rituals instead to fulfill the same purpose. As noted by imthestien above, there is now a flight ritual, which I don’t remember from before (however I’ve never played Tremere so am happy to be corrected). The downside to this is that rituals take time. Want to throw a fireball mid combat? Better hope you prepared your Gauntlets of Flame earlier that night!!!

            Personally, I don’t know what I want. I always though Thaumaturgy was overpowered, but to be any good it was a massive XP drain. This way it’s on a more level playing field, but it’s lost it’s utilitarianism. As I’ve never played Tremere and never likely will (I’m an ST nowadays), do I care?

            Anyway, a question on Amalgams - do they eat into your Powers selection? Ie, can I have Dominate level 4, and the 4 powers from the Dominate Range and then ALSO buy Dementation? Obviously I need the other corresponding discipline too, but is it otherwise just an XP cost rather than limiting what else I can have? If it is limiting, which discipline track dies it limit from?

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            • #7
              Amalgam Powers count toward your Discipline list of powers, so if you choose one you have one less power you can choose for your 5 point max. I like this because it means you need to really decide early on what is important to your character and what niche you want them to fill. This means not every Kindred will fill the same roll even if they have the same Disciplines. A Nosferatu with Obfuscate may focus purely on staying hidden and vanishing from sight, while a Malkavian with Obfuscate may focus on looking like other people or being what you most expect to find.


              "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Imthestein View Post
                Amalgam Powers count toward your Discipline list of powers, so if you choose one you have one less power you can choose for your 5 point max. I like this because it means you need to really decide early on what is important to your character and what niche you want them to fill. This means not every Kindred will fill the same roll even if they have the same Disciplines. A Nosferatu with Obfuscate may focus purely on staying hidden and vanishing from sight, while a Malkavian with Obfuscate may focus on looking like other people or being what you most expect to find.
                I think it'd be more interesting if you could buy multiple powers beyond the 5. You can have a very interesting set of builds that way.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #9
                  Well, if Amalgams do limit you, then using them to take the plane of thaumaturgy paths is a non starter as you need s certain level to do them anyway, let’s be fair - lure of flames amalgam isn’t going to be Thau and potence 1.

                  By the way, my thoughts were that Amalgams DID count towards your total.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by chipotlechris View Post
                    Well, if Amalgams do limit you, then using them to take the plane of thaumaturgy paths is a non starter as you need s certain level to do them anyway, let’s be fair - lure of flames amalgam isn’t going to be Thau and potence 1.

                    By the way, my thoughts were that Amalgams DID count towards your total.
                    I never specified how much Potence would be necessary, nor was I suggesting I was committed to that particular Discipline combo to evoke that power. Personally, I think combining that stuff into Amalgam powers and rituals is a better solution but I get the sense our opinion of what works in a game differs. So, with that being said, you could do like CTPhipps says and have powers beyond 5 in your game. I don't think I would personally go that way though as I've seen what everything being on the table can do to the economy of powers. Obviously YMMV


                    "The only consistent wisdom is in knowing you know nothing" ~ Socrates

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by chipotlechris View Post
                      Well, if Amalgams do limit you, then using them to take the plane of thaumaturgy paths is a non starter as you need s certain level to do them anyway, let’s be fair - lure of flames amalgam isn’t going to be Thau and potence 1.

                      By the way, my thoughts were that Amalgams DID count towards your total.

                      Amalgams DO fill a power slot, as it's a Discipline aspect that just has a prerequisite of another Discipline. Dementation requires the character to have Obfuscate 2, to be buyable as a Dominate 2+ power. Honestly, assuming any other Thaumaturgy-style powers come out in alter books, I expect them to be just Disciplines without that 'must have a Primary Path' stuff from pre-V5. I mean, most Paths of Thaumaturgy were just 'a Discipline that is a type of magic' in presentation.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        I think that rituals would pretty much change the nature of some powers completely. Lure of the Flames is useless as a ritual because if you can't do it instantly then you can just use a lighter.
                        Creo Ignem could be perfectly replaced by a ritual that only requires a cut and vampire blood to work.This way it can be used in one turn/instantly.

                        Thaumaturgy makes more sense as a ritual discipline
                        Last edited by Leandro16; 11-24-2018, 09:34 PM.


                        Hunger pool

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                        • #13
                          I'm going to keep saying v5 shouldn't have put caps on disciplines. Let every discipline have as many alts as is appropriate.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lian View Post
                            I'm going to keep saying v5 shouldn't have put caps on disciplines. Let every discipline have as many alts as is appropriate.
                            Agreed 100%


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Imthestein View Post
                              Amalgam Powers count toward your Discipline list of powers, so if you choose one you have one less power you can choose for your 5 point max. I like this because it means you need to really decide early on what is important to your character and what niche you want them to fill. This means not every Kindred will fill the same roll even if they have the same Disciplines. A Nosferatu with Obfuscate may focus purely on staying hidden and vanishing from sight, while a Malkavian with Obfuscate may focus on looking like other people or being what you most expect to find.
                              What a.....

                              So, just speaking about the physical disciplines, which were clamored to be oh-so-more interesting and diverse, now, I have to decide if I want a power for a level that could be used in combat, or one outside of it? While the old ones were equally useful for both, especially in V20?

                              While also, in the old system I could have as many combination disciplines as I wanted, on top of the normal levels...

                              Okay, this 5 dot limit is just. No. Especially for the "magical tradition" disciplines. Somehow it eluded me (I admit I only skimmed the disciplines section at the first read), but it just makes the system even worse in my eyes, which is an achievment on itself.


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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