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[V5] How I'm splitting up the Sabbat

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  • [V5] How I'm splitting up the Sabbat

    I'd like to see some serious changes to the Sabbat.

    Some of which would be unpopular.

    Here's my list of how I'm going to do it in my games until we get a proper Sabbat book.

    I'm open to suggestions.

    * The Loyalists all join the Anarchs or are Anarchs by default. They don't give a shit about the Sabbat structure anyway so they're basically diablerists who live free.

    * The Black Hand and the Tal'Mah'Re join formally into one enormous stable military/death cult that jettisons a lot of the weird but not all of it. They exist to serve the Antediluvians and/or eliminate them. They pick one and stick with it. They also hate all infernalists. If you join the Black Hand, you exist to be a professional adventurer stopping the end of the world while also being an enormous asshole.

    I'm inclined to go "Caine worship, kill the Antediluvians since they turned out to be assholes. However, we have actual plans on how to kill the Antediluvians. Not great ones but at least an idea."

    * House Goratrix is an ALLY of the Black Hand and recruits Tremere to save the world from Kupala and the Antediluvians, not because they're good guys because there won't be a world left to rule if they don't.

    Just to highlight HOW fucked up and bizarre the situation has gotten, House Goratrix is allied with the Salubri Antitribu who treat him like he's Saulot reborn. They're the knights of House Goratrix.

    * The Church of Caine becomes an independent sect headed by a Regent, Archbishops, Bishops, and so on ruling territory in their own right. A lot of these guys are ex-Sabbat Lasombra who take advantage of the Second Inquisition decapitating power structures and setting up new domains in the aftermath.

    Some will join the Camarilla, at least nominally, most won't bother.

    * The Sabbat proper, basically what's left over from the Gehenna War after this split, becomes completely corrupted by their diablerie in the Middle East. They are all insane, powerful, low generation crazies who may practice Satan worship as well as being indistinguishable from the Baali. More or less purely evil adventure fodder like Brother Vick from Bloodlines.

    * The Tzimisce Old Clan becomes an actual sizeable faction and an Independent clan as well as part of all this. They have Animalism, Blood Sorcery, and Protean. Vicissitude is a Ritual for Protean or an Amalgamation of Blood Sorcery and Protean.

    Any suggestions?

    I'm trying to figure out if this works or I'm missing some flaws or how people will react.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-26-2018, 07:38 PM.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

  • #2
    I don't mind a lot of what you have here, really. The Sabbat does need a good shake up, and seeing them fracture and splinter wouldn't be all that bad of a route to go.

    The only thing I wouldn't bring on board for my own games is your take on Vicissitude, but that is not because I see your view as bad or inferior - it just isn't the direction I'm hoping that they go with it.


    -Red
    V20 Content: Age & Potency
    V5 Content: The Masquerade, Tzimisce and Vicissitude, Loresheet: Chicago, Resonance Flavor
    Community & Project Manager, Developer at Hunters Entertainment

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    • #3
      I am not seeing any Sabbat left at all after all of these changes - I suppose this is intentional ?
      I am thinking about maybe including in this a group that is the shaken - but stable - remaining core of the old Sabbat, with which all of these splinters interact. This group also makes cooperation between the splinters possible, despite the great differences between them. One of the groups that you listed could be this old guard of the Sabbat, or it could be a new group.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
        I am not seeing any Sabbat left at all after all of these changes - I suppose this is intentional ?
        I am thinking about maybe including in this a group that is the shaken - but stable - remaining core of the old Sabbat, with which all of these splinters interact. This group also makes cooperation between the splinters possible, despite the great differences between them. One of the groups that you listed could be this old guard of the Sabbat, or it could be a new group.
        I see like 5 or 6 different Sabbat.

        What do you think qualifies as the Sabbat?

        But yes, the people going by the Sabbat Sabbat are purely evil monsters. The Boogeymen and Michael Myers of Kindred. Belial's Brood except so much worse.

        1st Generation Sabbat.

        A plague of locusts that can descend on your city and destroy it.

        Obviously, this is something that might be bad for people who love more traditional Sabbat but might create a sense of "tragedy" that they've been reduced to this.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 11-26-2018, 08:13 PM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

        Comment


        • #5
          I would do a good Fourth Sabbat Civil War as the Loyalists revolt once more to return the sect to what it is supposed to be. That allows for all sorts of faction politics as the various interest groups (House Goratrix, Panders, Black Hand) and moderating packs, have to decide whether they align with the episcopalian hierarchy of the Lasombra and Tzimisce, or all those Loyalist packs (many nomadic packs, plus the Brujah AT and Ventrue AT). And if the Loyalists attempt to make common cause with the Anarchs, it would lead to a very different dynamic for the Anarchs than the normal Prince vs Anarchs conflict.

          If you map out the various stages of such a conflict (first stage is a "local rebellion" that people pretend is not a civil war; second stage is the rebellion growing and people accepting this is the start of the civil war, but there are many fence sitters; the third stage is the fence sitters having to take sides (or start their own and thereby piss everyone else off); fourth stage is the long series of major battles that decide the war's outcome with possible foreign interventions; and the fifth stage is when one side has won the war, but the other hasn't accepted it yet which produces the most bitter stage of the fighting until that side collapses.

          Lots of historical inspiration can be used to model this out, but the Spanish Civil War and the ongoing Syrian Civil War would work as models.

          The Third Sabbat Civil War was basically a failed coup that ended prematurely when the Panders were recognized and they changed sides. A Fourth Civil War might take decades to play out and provide long term fun for your PCs. You just need to let the chips fall where they may as things happen (and PCs determine outcomes).

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            I'd like to see some serious changes to the Sabbat.

            Some of which would be unpopular.

            Here's my list of how I'm going to do it in my games until we get a proper Sabbat book.

            I'm open to suggestions.

            * The Loyalists all join the Anarchs or are Anarchs by default. They don't give a shit about the Sabbat structure anyway so they're basically diablerists who live free.

            * The Black Hand and the Tal'Mah'Re join formally into one enormous stable military/death cult that jettisons a lot of the weird but not all of it. They exist to serve the Antediluvians and/or eliminate them. They pick one and stick with it. They also hate all infernalists. If you join the Black Hand, you exist to be a professional adventurer stopping the end of the world while also being an enormous asshole.

            I'm inclined to go "Caine worship, kill the Antediluvians since they turned out to be assholes. However, we have actual plans on how to kill the Antediluvians. Not great ones but at least an idea."

            * House Goratrix is an ALLY of the Black Hand and recruits Tremere to save the world from Kupala and the Antediluvians, not because they're good guys because there won't be a world left to rule if they don't.

            Just to highlight HOW fucked up and bizarre the situation has gotten, House Goratrix is allied with the Salubri Antitribu who treat him like he's Saulot reborn. They're the knights of House Goratrix.

            * The Church of Caine becomes an independent sect headed by a Regent, Archbishops, Bishops, and so on ruling territory in their own right. A lot of these guys are ex-Sabbat Lasombra who take advantage of the Second Inquisition decapitating power structures and setting up new domains in the aftermath.

            Some will join the Camarilla, at least nominally, most won't bother.

            * The Sabbat proper, basically what's left over from the Gehenna War after this split, becomes completely corrupted by their diablerie in the Middle East. They are all insane, powerful, low generation crazies who may practice Satan worship as well as being indistinguishable from the Baali. More or less purely evil adventure fodder like Brother Vick from Bloodlines.

            * The Tzimisce Old Clan becomes an actual sizeable faction and an Independent clan as well as part of all this. They have Animalism, Blood Sorcery, and Protean. Vicissitude is a Ritual for Protean or an Amalgamation of Blood Sorcery and Protean.

            Any suggestions?

            I'm trying to figure out if this works or I'm missing some flaws or how people will react.
            -Loyalists joining the Anarchs makes sense. Touraine is basically an old school anarch.

            -Way I see it, it's the other way around. Anosh uses the upheavals leading up to the crusade to get his group back, they go back to being the Lost Tribe, head east to defend the weeping statue and the entire crusade is organized around their structure.

            -That sounds exactly like Tremere. And Goratrix. Also, is Adonai dead in your table? If not I wonder what that angry mofo is playing at.

            -The Heresy keeping the religious titles makes sense. They gave those to the Sabbat in the first place. Would they be a splinter group from the Church mentioned in the Cam and Anarch books?

            -The cult aspects have been really ramped up. Your take is exactly what I expect.

            -The Old Clan that joined out of convenience would probably go to the Oradea League, increase the sect's power. It's already a vampiric old boys club.

            What would be your take on the Inquisition? Sandoza opposes the Black Hand and has a thing for hunting Infernalism. Maybe they're the ones giving logistic support to the packs still terrorising the Camarilla. Maybe they'll start another Civil War when the crusaders return.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by El Barto View Post

              -Loyalists joining the Anarchs makes sense. Touraine is basically an old school anarch.

              -Way I see it, it's the other way around. Anosh uses the upheavals leading up to the crusade to get his group back, they go back to being the Lost Tribe, head east to defend the weeping statue and the entire crusade is organized around their structure.

              -That sounds exactly like Tremere. And Goratrix. Also, is Adonai dead in your table? If not I wonder what that angry mofo is playing at.

              -The Heresy keeping the religious titles makes sense. They gave those to the Sabbat in the first place. Would they be a splinter group from the Church mentioned in the Cam and Anarch books?

              -The cult aspects have been really ramped up. Your take is exactly what I expect.

              -The Old Clan that joined out of convenience would probably go to the Oradea League, increase the sect's power. It's already a vampiric old boys club.

              What would be your take on the Inquisition? Sandoza opposes the Black Hand and has a thing for hunting Infernalism. Maybe they're the ones giving logistic support to the packs still terrorising the Camarilla. Maybe they'll start another Civil War when the crusaders return.
              I suspect the Inquisition would probably be inclined to side with the Church of Caine simply because it's the ones least likely to interfere with their job the old fashioned way even if it's a dramatic cut of prestige. I imagine as being among the Sabbat who can tie their shoe laces, they would think Tremere and the Black Hand are more likely to experiment with infernalism than fight it.

              And the others are kind of...off.

              They might try to encourage the Church of Caine to be a bit more militant and a little more, "Start the Sabbat over but do it right this time."

              I imagine the Church of Caine and this branch of the Sabbat are the same but there's members in the Camarilla and Anarchs as religion can cross sects. Certainly, the Lasombra would see the potential in religious control of Cainites seeking wisdom.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                I see like 5 or 6 different Sabbat.

                What do you think qualifies as the Sabbat?
                I see these characteristics as defining of the Sabbat :
                -A concious choice to adopt an outlook and code of behavior based upon being a Vampire.
                -Freedom to act as one wants to.
                -The Ritae.
                -Contempt, at least, towards mundane human.
                Though there are also the history, the factions, and the hierarchy of the Sabbat ; which could be considered to be as defining - if not more - of the sect as the above characteristics.

                What happened in regard to the Ritae in your write-up of events ?

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                • #9
                  I think the most important change to make in the sabbat is in one mechanic (the embrace).I would personally make each embrace cost 1 temporal WP no matter what edition.That way the mass embrace is still posible but doesnt generate a vampiric army in a can.

                  Personally the changes that i would make is to make the sabbat adore not only caine but also the beast to resonate with belial brood and also I would make the strix exist in WoD as another set of dark masters from behind the courtains.How many members from the Black Hand are infected by this alien disease? do they also control someone in the camarilla inner circle?.

                  How to shake the metaplot coherently 101.

                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  That said i would sell the sabbat as the ORKs TM from DnD , they are a HORDE that comits canibalism and rape in masse (diablerie).They are also ruled by an evil overlord (the archbishop).They preach about ultimate freedom but the sabbat is all about the law of the jungle , the strong survive to rule until another overlord deposes him.

                  The Black Hand is made by the 1% of the Sabbat they are the overlords and their most loyal servants that said , hey we hold the power lets alliate to cover our asses and expand our influence it didnt work bad for the camarilla.

                  The True Black Hand is made by the 1% of the 1% they are servants of the antediluvians or so they say but in true they are serving something more alien (the strix).The sabbat full glory is being hypocrites and i am nobody to deny them that.


                  Hunger pool

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                    I think the most important change to make in the sabbat is in one mechanic (the embrace).I would personally make each embrace cost 1 temporal WP no matter what edition.That way the mass embrace is still posible but doesnt generate a vampiric army in a can.

                    Personally the changes that i would make is to make the sabbat adore not only caine but also the beast to resonate with belial brood and also I would make the strix exist in WoD as another set of dark masters from behind the courtains.How many members from the Black Hand are infected by this alien disease? do they also control someone in the camarilla inner circle?.
                    While I'm not adverse to the idea of Embracing someone having some kind of metaphysical cost in general; it wouldn't change the sabbat.
                    It would just mean that the roving packs that do it are generally larger, since 10 vampires could embrace 40-60 vampires in a night. And doing that kind of thing would likely be justification to get willpower back.
                    Also, if there was a "Mechanic" to mass embraces, there would be a Ritae to get past it. Maybe the ritae is flawed and makes them a couple of gen weaker instead of just one, or due to the mixed blood from a Vaulderie being used to embrace; the Shovelheads could be of any random clan with increased likelihood of caitiff/pander and having usual "in clan" disciplines, even for those that manifest a clan proper. But the point is that the Sorcerers or the tactics would just change things a little to make the technique possible.

                    On the Strix - It's a personal gripe when people talk about moving significant things between Masquerade and Requiem, they're different worlds. I should be encouraging personal world building because it's good for games. I think I just don't like taking things whole-cloth across when they don't really fit in to the world frame or one of the many multiples of the cosmology already present

                    I'd suggest looking at making a Masquerade version if you're going to bring them in. Have a Wyrm spirit, Abyss creatures, ghosts, Umbrood, Demon, chimerical being or anything else that already exists in the world's cosmology
                    Or modify the new-ish half vampire half ghost merit in lore of .. Bloodlines? Clans? to work with what you want to do.

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                    • #11
                      I feel the bigger issue with Mass Embraces is that there's only so much you can do to control shovelheads. Just because they were buried alive doesn't mean that they're automatically Humanity 0 monsters.

                      Even he Vauldrie only goes so far.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #12
                        I've already made my stance on it on other threads in the past couple months.

                        I'm okay with you wanting to go with it this way and this kind of interpretation of the Sabbat. It's not my cup of tea though. I wouldn't like V5 going this direction, though, I think it likely will, or something close.

                        I liked that the Sabbat were inhuman monsters, but, at least a sizeable portion of them, inhuman monsters you could reason with. I don't want them being reduced to the most crazies, being just "Belial's Brood, but darker".

                        But I'm making peace with the fact that I just don't really like most of V5's take on the sects. Maybe next time.



                        If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                          I've already made my stance on it on other threads in the past couple months.

                          I'm okay with you wanting to go with it this way and this kind of interpretation of the Sabbat. It's not my cup of tea though. I wouldn't like V5 going this direction, though, I think it likely will, or something close.

                          I liked that the Sabbat were inhuman monsters, but, at least a sizeable portion of them, inhuman monsters you could reason with. I don't want them being reduced to the most crazies, being just "Belial's Brood, but darker".

                          But I'm making peace with the fact that I just don't really like most of V5's take on the sects. Maybe next time.
                          What's your take on Anarch's changes? I've loved this take the most because I've always hated the way they were treated as a joke by previous editions when they are the default PC sect.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            What's your take on Anarch's changes? I've loved this take the most because I've always hated the way they were treated as a joke by previous editions when they are the default PC sect.
                            I think we went through that earlier.

                            I'm currently reading the Cam book. Actually, it's not bad, as writing goes, it's an enjoyable book. I still prefer the classic portrayal. Also, one criticism I have, that it just doesn't make as good of a guide to the sect as the Revised one was. It's all over the place, much of in-character stuff, but pretty sparse on actual information. Lots of name-dropping, without explanation. It feels more like a plot book targeted to existing players, than a sect guide for new ones.

                            Also, I still don't like the visuals, by and large. What's the thing with these geometric, star-like penline things at the start of chapters anyway? They just feel out of place.

                            As for the Anarchs: I didn't read their book yet, so I don't have the full picture. However, as I said many times, regarding V5, I like the core idea they've had about it, but not how far they went with it. I like that the Anarchs took over in multiple main cities and not a laughingstock, folding over to the Cathayans and the Cam. I don't like that they are completely a separate sect, at open war with the Cam, I liked the dichotomy of their earlier relationship, I think it had more gray areas and was a lot more interesting.

                            My favorite portrayal of Anarchs was Anarchs Unbound. competent, but maintaining their halfway status.


                            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                            • #15
                              Since the Second Edition these things would be vital to the Sabbath.

                              - It be a third Aztec, combining with European Paganism and Heretic Catholicism (which are already part of it). Including Leaders, Ritae (Auctorium Ritae) and a sub-sect.
                              - He have several roads with localized formal structures and they have as well as the bloodlines representatives between Independent Priscis.
                              - The Cainite Heresy and the Cult of Lilith exist as heresies within it.

                              I would still do away with the notion that every vampyre of the Sabbath is affiliated with a band, increasing both the power of the bishops in the city and the great nomadic bands (with three instead of two posts, having a nuncio in some city to have support from some great leader of the Sabbath). But that last change would be impossible for V5.

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