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[V5] How I'm splitting up the Sabbat

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  • #31
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I think the Sabbat needed to be updated because, bluntly, they were encroaching a little too much on the territory of the Anarchs. Over in the Facebook Vampire: The Masquerade, one of the single most annoying things I encounter plenty of people who say:

    * The Anarchs are just Neonates who haven't grown up.
    * The loyal opposition to the Camarilla.
    * Guys who can't commit to the Sabbat or the Camarilla

    Basically, the Sabbat has taken their role as the defenders of freedom and neonates against the Elders in the War of Ages. I think that sucks for the Anarchs who, always, will be the real protagonists of the setting and the Camarilla's greatest enemy.

    I think removing the War of Ages element from the Sabbat and letting the FREEEDOM types be more the Anarchs will help matters. I think, also, the Sabbat being monstrous and embracing that monstroscity that it drowns out most else makes them unique.

    But that's just me.

    I feel like the Sabbat, as is, has too many hats and it's taken some hats from other factions.
    So the Sabbat should be butchered because the Anarchs were badly written? Sorry, but I don't buy that. Develop the Anarchs in their own right. The Sabbat were always very popular with players.

    I like the idea of a new Sabbat Civil War. It's appropriate. The rest, not so much.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

      So the Sabbat should be butchered because the Anarchs were badly written? Sorry, but I don't buy that. Develop the Anarchs in their own right. The Sabbat were always very popular with players.
      I agree, the Sabbat works and is very interesting as a radical / dark Sect. There is an amount of stability of the Sabbat that might seem surprising, but it makes sense considering the ideology, the Ritae, the leadership of the Lasombra and the Tzimisce ( and of the Toreador Antitribu, and the Ventrue Antitribu ) leadersihp, and the existence of factions and groups within the Sabbat who strive for greater unity and cohesivness.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

        So the Sabbat should be butchered because the Anarchs were badly written? Sorry, but I don't buy that. Develop the Anarchs in their own right. The Sabbat were always very popular with players.

        I like the idea of a new Sabbat Civil War. It's appropriate. The rest, not so much.
        The Sabbat will never be as interesting as the Anarchs and can't do their stuff as well as the Anarchs.

        So the Sabbat need to develop their own thing.

        YMMV.

        As for being "butchered", that's a matter of opinion since I think breaking them up into competing terrorist groups is topical and works well for emphasizing their fanaticism.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #34
          I have opposing visions of what the Sabbat should be in V20 and V5. On V20 I'll talk later. But on V5 it should refer only to groups linked to vinculli without connection to each other except by ritaes, valderie and nodism.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
            I have opposing visions of what the Sabbat should be in V20 and V5. On V20 I'll talk later. But on V5 it should refer only to groups linked to vinculli without connection to each other except by ritaes, valderie and nodism.
            This is quite a lot of connection, especially the Noddism part.

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            • #36
              In my chronicles, I portrayed the Sabbat as basically the old school evil vampires of Count Dracula, Count Yorga, Salem's Lot, Hammer Film's satanic vampire cult movies, and any other movie where the vampires were irredeemable monsters that needed to be staked. The Camarilla was portrayed and the new school vampires of Anne Rice combined with sympathetic vampires like Barnabas Collins (from Dark Shadows) and Hannibal King (from Marvel's Tomb of Dracula).

              The Anarchs were mostly just Lost Boys - vampires who mostly belonged in the Camarilla, but thought they were evil like the Sabbat vampires but weren't as bad. The problem was that as appealing as that is to young adolescents and adults, there's not just that much there. Of course, in the 1st edition Chicago By Night book, we saw a more sublte and deeper approach to the Anarchs. You had Juggler's Nihilists, but you also had idealists like Hind's Socialists and a more active revolutionary group like Maldavis. We also got the inclination in Anarch's Cookbook that there were some serious philosophical underpinnings to some of the Anarch thinking on how vampiric society should be organized. That had a lot of potential.

              I think the problem was that LA By Night was not very good and really deflated people's interest in the Anarchs. It really needed to be a showcase for different Anarch philosophies and how they were competing with each other in the Free State. Instead, every faction was just in its own gang, and there was little difference between them. In contrast, the Sabbat offered a lot more toys for people to play with - you had two new clans, the Black Hand, Infernalism & the Sabbat Inquisition, new Disciplines, House Goratrix, and the Paths of Enlightenment.

              I think the key to revitalizing the Anarchs is to develop each of the various factions in it. Yes, there should be thugs and gangs like Juggler's Nihilists and the LA gangs like in the Lost Boys, but we also need to see how the Anarchs are more than just "I think the local Prince is a dick". We need to see real alternative political systems to the Camarilla's Inner Circle, Justicars, Princes, and Conclaves. We need to see unrealistic idealists; brutal dictators; participatory democracies; cults of personalities; libertarian anarchism; and more in terms of vampires. We need self-appointed guardians who self-police the Anarchs, and propagandists and rabble rousers who temporarily invade Camarilla domains. We need to see examples of safe houses and the Anarch Underground that links anarchs together. And we need to see how the anarchs deal with the Sabbat on their own - their successes and failures.

              And I think a little connection between Sabbat Loyalists and the Anarchs, and how the two try to use each other as well as trying to become permanent allies, would also be great.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                I have opposing visions of what the Sabbat should be in V20 and V5. On V20 I'll talk later. But on V5 it should refer only to groups linked to vinculli without connection to each other except by ritaes, valderie and nodism.
                Vaulderie is the Rite, Viniculum is the effect of the rite. In practical purposes, they're the same.

                I personally think that the Sabbat and Anarchs can fill similar niches with overlap and be distinct.
                The Anarchs are looking for freedom from the Tyranny of elders by establishing their own baronies, usually clinging to the things that make them human, their links to mortals being important.
                The Sabbat are looking for freedom from the elders (By consuming them) as well as freedom from humanity (their own, ad having to be subject to it's laws) mixed in with Caine worship, and death cult rituals to continue loyalty to the cause.

                Just because they both want "Freedom" doesn't make them the same, look at real life examples of groups looking for "Equality" Racism and Sexism; there are similar fights to be had, but different ones as well. People can exist in both; there's the ... Intersectional feminism (I think, that'd be most correct) that says you can't fix one without focusing on the other as well.
                There's even different groups inside the sexism-fighting meta-group, that disagree with the other's goals and tactics, even calling the others enemies for the cause; when both groups are looking for "Equality" just have different measures defined.
                *I wanted to use this as an example of the diversity in what should be a simple ideal of treating everybody as a person worthy of respect, not use this to get in to a specific debate on this point*

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                  I think the problem was that LA By Night was not very good and really deflated people's interest in the Anarchs. It really needed to be a showcase for different Anarch philosophies and how they were competing with each other in the Free State. Instead, every faction was just in its own gang, and there was little difference between them. In contrast, the Sabbat offered a lot more toys for people to play with - you had two new clans, the Black Hand, Infernalism & the Sabbat Inquisition, new Disciplines, House Goratrix, and the Paths of Enlightenment.
                  I'm inclined to agree and note the Anarch situation in LA also made LA seem less interesting as a whole. No attention to Hollywood, no attention to its businesses, no attention to anything but gang culture. It was a very unnuanced and combat heavy portrayal of vampirism.

                  Basically it seemed designed for the "trenchcoat and katana" PC crowd to hang out in.



                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #39
                    The Freedom thing is just speech. In fact the Sabbat is a Modern World Monarchy like the Camarilla. And it is better that it be, the sabbat before being established that way did not work as an antagonist (and vampire never needed non-playable antagonists) and was not mysterious, just had no solidity, versatility, nuance and practicality.

                    Of course, different monarchies have customs, different hierarchies, different policies, different protocols, different labels, different organizations.

                    There are two approaches that work for modern sects that are of conspiracies like Magnus Nigrum or Monarchies as the ancient monarchies of Dark Ages as the Baronates of Avalon.

                    I find it strange that monarchies have survived Gehenna and therefore propose that Camarilla and Saba become conspiracies (they have not even survived the Anarchist Revolt).

                    _____________________

                    Nor will I bother to speak of the Left Fascist as the Intersec who maintains the same struggles of fascism as "cultural normalization and reinforcement of stereotypes" in their cultural determinism that sounds like a subliminal message while using the same dehumanizing tactic of "oppressors" , trivialization of evil and dalitization of humanists among the minorities they claim to defend.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                      In my chronicles, I portrayed the Sabbat as basically the old school evil vampires of Count Dracula, Count Yorga, Salem's Lot...
                      Well, Dracula is still doing his old evil overlord act in the old country😎
                      As a side note, I hope V5 covers the Oradea League at some point. I liked how V20 built them up as participants of the Jyhad. As well as make them not exclusively Tzimice.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                        The Freedom thing is just speech. In fact the Sabbat is a Modern World Monarchy like the Camarilla. And it is better that it be, the sabbat before being established that way did not work as an antagonist (and vampire never needed non-playable antagonists) and was not mysterious, just had no solidity, versatility, nuance and practicality.
                        Of course, different monarchies have customs, different hierarchies, different policies, different protocols, different labels, different organizations.
                        There are two approaches that work for modern sects that are of conspiracies like Magnus Nigrum or Monarchies as the ancient monarchies of Dark Ages as the Baronates of Avalon.
                        I find it strange that monarchies have survived Gehenna and therefore propose that Camarilla and Saba become conspiracies (they have not even survived the Anarchist Revolt).
                        The Camarilla formed in response to the Anarch Revolt, and Sabbat (Years down the track) in response to the formation of the Camarilla. The previous total rule of Medieval style rule (And throwing neonates at your inquisitions to make them go away) is what didn't didn't survive the revolt.
                        Sabbat is very similar to a monarchy, I'd never noticed that before (With the small detail that the Regent of the Sabbat is replaced every 7 years)
                        I'm not sure how you see the Camarilla differing if it was to be considered a conspiracy? In editions 1-4 - They have secret rules, traditions and internal policing. But they made the decision that they would include every vampire (whether they liked it or not.) Even then they had some strict rules for people not allowed. In V5 they kick out the "rabble" after deciding to be more exclusive.

                        Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                        Nor will I bother to speak of the Left Fascist as the Intersec who maintains the same struggles of fascism as "cultural normalization and reinforcement of stereotypes" in their cultural determinism that sounds like a subliminal message while using the same dehumanizing tactic of "oppressors" , trivialization of evil and dalitization of humanists among the minorities they claim to defend.
                        Who is this quote from?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          I think the Sabbat needed to be updated because, bluntly, they were encroaching a little too much on the territory of the Anarchs. Over in the Facebook Vampire: The Masquerade, one of the single most annoying things I encounter plenty of people who say:

                          * The Anarchs are just Neonates who haven't grown up.
                          * The loyal opposition to the Camarilla.
                          * Guys who can't commit to the Sabbat or the Camarilla
                          Honestly, I don't have problems with any of these, because yeah, the Anarchs are those too,but I'd add other things too.

                          Basically, the Sabbat has taken their role as the defenders of freedom and neonates against the Elders in the War of Ages. I think that sucks for the Anarchs who, always, will be the real protagonists of the setting and the Camarilla's greatest enemy.
                          Eh. IMO, the Sabbat talking about freedom is just propaganda. At best, it means freedom from the Antediluvians. Freedom from the elders is just talk, to sway over disenfranchised Cam and Anarch vampires. For me, freedom was just not a central theme of the Sabbat, waging a war on the Antes (and the Cam, as the antes' tool) was.

                          The Anarchs, in comparison, are truly about freedom (and redistribution of power and wealth), but often in a naive way. Also, i think the moment they start to became the Cam's greatest enemy, they stop being about freedom.




                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            I'm inclined to agree and note the Anarch situation in LA also made LA seem less interesting as a whole.
                            Pretty much every City By Night book after Chicago has been terrible although every so often I hear a few people defend that one or this one on some minor point. But the failure of LA By Night was really bad because at the time everyone I knew was expecting it to be a big showcase for what an Anarch game could be. The Anarch equivalent of the Chicago book with interesting NPCs, intriguing conflicts, and secret mysteries to uncover. It wasn't. There's a few good bits in LA By Night. A few of the NPCs have potential, and there is nothing wrong with the basic idea of the Free State being divided into baronies with different factions against each other. But it really needed a lot more work, and dropping again into the same well of "a secret Methusaleh is manipulating/ruling the city" was especially bankrupt creatively. There are worse City By Night books out there, but none had the expectations that LA had.

                            I was always more interested in playing in the Camarilla, but I did like the potential conflicts in a Camarilla city with Anarchs in it so I want the concept to have enough interesting things in it that compels players.

                            I've never run an LA By Night chronicle so I never developed my version of the Free State, but I've jotted down a few ideas - mainly for potential use in other cities where I do run my games in when I want some kind of "ambassadors" from LA to the local anarchs, or the local anarchs debating events in the Free State and how it may impact them locally.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                              The Camarilla formed in response to the Anarch Revolt, and Sabbat (Years down the track) in response to the formation of the Camarilla. The previous total rule of Medieval style rule (And throwing neonates at your inquisitions to make them go away) is what didn't didn't survive the revolt.
                              Sabbat is very similar to a monarchy, I'd never noticed that before (With the small detail that the Regent of the Sabbat is replaced every 7 years)
                              I'm not sure how you see the Camarilla differing if it was to be considered a conspiracy? In editions 1-4 - They have secret rules, traditions and internal policing. But they made the decision that they would include every vampire (whether they liked it or not.) Even then they had some strict rules for people not allowed. In V5 they kick out the "rabble" after deciding to be more exclusive.


                              Who is this quote from?

                              The Camarilla Formation Plan precedes the Sabbath and the Anarchist Revolt and aims to replace the Medieval Monarchies with a Modern Monarchy in the shape of the Holy Roman Empire (to have a council of princes who elects its agents). They clearly used the Anarchist Revolt to destroy the Old Structure.

                              The Sabbat comes in response to the Camarilla and also as another conspiracy of the Western Ancients who were left out (so much so that only clans distant from the focus of the War of the Princes who could afford not to join any of them).

                              They function as Monarchies because they have the concept of "open citizenship," when you join one of them you can not make a secret that belongs to one of them, it is different from Magnus Nigrum or Cainite Heresy that most of its members preferred that only their peers (and only a few of them) knew they were in the sect.

                              I believe that just as the Anarchist Revolt replaced the Regional Monarchies for Worlds, Gehenna should have played the Modern Monarchies at least from discretion but for secrecy (as Iluminattis).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Camarilla
                                Ventrue - The Ventrue clan began to retake the medieval origins of the clan as knights, the need to establish order in their former domains has compelled the clan as a whole to recruit individuals with a leadership profile who can take risks on the front lines.
                                Toreadors - The Toreador clan is becoming the second most influential clan of the sect, power positions formerly controlled by the Ventrue are naturally being taken over by the Toreador.
                                Malkavians - the Malkavian clan soon began to establish itself with more political force within the sect, they have served as political support (instead of Toreadores), advisors (instead of Tremere) and even scouts (instead of Nosferatu).
                                Tremere - Tremere clan suffered heavy casualties against the Inquisition, with clan structure undone and without leadership and stability the clan loses the political strength it had since the foundation of the sect.
                                Nosferatu - the Nosferatu clan who were once efficient spies and scouts were the first to be persecuted by the Inquisition and guilty of the Shrecknet spill, without their technological resources and their vast network of information the clan lost much of its former prestige, being renegade as pariahs by the sect.

                                Anarchists
                                Brujah - the Brujah clan established itself as the leaders of the Anarchist Movement, they see new alliances forming night after night to occupy the old domains of the ancients and the Camarilla.
                                Gangrel - the Gangrel clan and the second most numerous among the Anarchists, although acting alone or in small groups the clan as a whole is committed to the anarchist cause.
                                Assamite - the Assamite clan is weakened due to the Gehenna War, many of its elders have been destroyed, the clan acts through cells that have been expelled since the Alamut was bombed and the clan leaders were destroyed or disappeared, Assamites currently accept secret contracts of any kind faction.
                                Setites - the Setite clan long negotiated with the Camarilla but never had a real position in the sect, this made the Setite a clan more willing to negotiate with the anarchists.
                                Giovanni - The Giovanni clan was set off with the destruction of Venice by the Inquisition and the return of the Cappadocians, currently the clan survivors act with the anarchists in search of protection against the extinction of the clan.

                                Sabbath
                                Lasombra - The Lasombra clan suffered heavy casualties due to the Gehenna War, the leaders of the nomadic bands carried out the Purge of Anti-Tribes and accepted new allies in their ranks.
                                Tzimisce - the Tzimisce clan has adapted to the new condition of the sect as priests and advisors of the Lasombra clan as a whole attempts to re-establish the flocks so that they become strong enough to reestablish domains for sect.
                                Salubri - the Salubri clan recovered, aware of the Tzimisce / Tremere conspiracy the Salubri became rivals of the Tzimisce by the political position of prestige in the sect, they initiated a crusade to destroy Tremere, Goratrix and Saulot, for having left the clan, that almost went extinct
                                Capadocian - the Capadocian clan resurfaced after a long period of exile, the death clan has been actively working to eliminate the Giovanni and take revenge on the Camarilla, who turned his back on the clan during the Dark Ages, surprisingly the Capadocians took control of the Black Hand, acting like cultists of the death and assassins, rescuing the old somber knowledge of the original cult.
                                Ravnos - the Ravnos clan witnessed Gehenna with the awakening of the Antidiluvian who annihilated almost every clan during Nightmares Weeks, the clan survivors ceased to be renegade by the Camarilla and pursued by their blood-maddened elders, the Ravnos were accepted by the nomadic condition two Sabbath parties.

                                Inconnu - the sect had a silent death, its elders were attracted by the Call of the Antidiluvians during the Wars Gehenna, few survived and they hid, carrying with them the secrets related to Golconda
                                Black Hand - the sect was blown up during the last years, its elders were killed, the Capadocians infiltrated among the former members of the sect, during the Expurgos of the Anti-Tribes the Capadocians completely took control of the sect of death, acting in this way as nodistas , explorers and cultist killers.

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