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[V5] How I'm splitting up the Sabbat

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  • #61
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    That, and they are, at the core, solitary preadtors, competing for quite finite resources.

    They organize themselves at the core, but the organization is only security. replicating the feudal elements that are inherent to it as well as its ambitions.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Schwartzung View Post
      I personally think that you can't look at the Sabbat and the Camarilla/Anarchs from the same lens. Thats where it looses its potency. It seems like we are trying to fit them all into western ideologies and that simply doesn't work. To me, the Camarilla are the system developed after the Anarch revolt. A system of order and government that is, of course, corrupt. The Anarchs are the young. Those that don't see why those systems are in place. Now the older leaders of the anarchs DO remember and that makes them more effective at rebelling. They understand how the Cams operate and know how to play the game within the rules. Of course, since the majority of anarchs are young, they flock to the flag that feels right. I guess that's it. The anarchs operate more off feelings of oppression than fact though there is a lot of fact in their claims.

      The Sabbat however, operate off of totally foreign ideals and philosophies. Yes they are a government and "free" but trying to look at them the same way you look at the Cams is like trying to compare western ideals with middle eastern ideals. It just doesn't work. The ways of life for both are so foreign to each other that they will never align. I see the Cams as a government and the Sabbat as a religious government. As we know, these are two very different things.

      Just my 2 cents
      The Sabbat are a terrorist organization. They're an army that is actually must less free than the Camarilla but they're drunk on religious orthodoxy, drugs (blood), and venting their frustrations via horrific atrocities and games.

      The hypocrisy of the fact it's an army (a regimented highly controlled life) and a cult (ditto) that believes it's "free" is part and parcel in the package.

      Their freedom is humanity but their religious ideology only allows that freedom as long as it serves the Sect.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        I think if you can't ever have a High Humanity vampire, that reduces the horror. I think of villifying Saulot, for example, as one of the dumbest things the gameline ever did.

        But YMMV.

        I don't think an equitable vampire state would ever stand but one should have existed until it was brought down.

        I disagree with that. It is Manichaeism that weakens the Horror. The Holy Saulot or the Sabbath Critter. Not the complex environment you have to confront without glimpsing the great evil or the good, as in Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. If there is one thing that reduces the horror is modernity does not have the same system of Roads as Dark Ages.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          The Sabbat are a terrorist organization. They're an army that is actually must less free than the Camarilla but they're drunk on religious orthodoxy, drugs (blood), and venting their frustrations via horrific atrocities and games.

          The hypocrisy of the fact it's an army (a regimented highly controlled life) and a cult (ditto) that believes it's "free" is part and parcel in the package.

          Their freedom is humanity but their religious ideology only allows that freedom as long as it serves the Sect.


          I think this is the first thing you've said about the Sabbat that I totally agree with!
          Cheers!


          Currently running: Gary/Chicago By Night

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
            I disagree with that. It is Manichaeism that weakens the Horror. The Holy Saulot or the Sabbath Critter. Not the complex environment you have to confront without glimpsing the great evil or the good, as in Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. If there is one thing that reduces the horror is modernity does not have the same system of Roads as Dark Ages.
            Like I said, if you can't be good then there's no horror.

            It's when you can be but fail due to human fraility that makes it work.

            But YMMV.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              Like I said, if you can't be good then there's no horror.

              It's when you can be but fail due to human fraility that makes it work.

              But YMMV.
              Dexter is a good example.
              The possibility of being good or even the lamentation of the present state is part of the horror. It is the confrontation with the corruption of the Beast to avoid irrationality (hell).

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post

                Dexter is a good example.
                The possibility of being good or even the lamentation of the present state is part of the horror. It is the confrontation with the corruption of the Beast to avoid irrationality (hell).
                Yeah, I actually felt where the show just gave up on him trying to be human was where it went off the rails.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  The hypocrisy of the fact it's an army (a regimented highly controlled life) and a cult (ditto) that believes it's "free" is part and parcel in the package.
                  This is one reason I didn't like the Sabbat of Revised. It implied the "ultra-conservatives" (basically the Lasombra and Tzimisce who wanted to centralize and control the sect) had won. Where were the Sabbat Loyalists or other factions that opposed them? Revised presented one specific version of the Sabbat where older materials allowed STs to decide what to happen and what to emphasize. There's a lot of factions in the Sabbat, and most of them would not see any benefit to the heavily regimented control that some of the bishops wanted.

                  Even though I see the Sabbat as the best place to put the old school horror vampires who kill people without a moment's doubt and mass embrace their victims, does not mean it also can't hold concepts outside of that. The implied diversity within the Sabbat, and the conflicting goals of those factions so that it creates internal conflict is much more interesting to me than the "Sword of Caine" version. The first gives me lots to play with as an ST and PC. The second is just a wargame. And wargames are fun. But they aren't RPGs.

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                  • #69
                    Actually as of Revised it was the Status Quo faction that was in charge of the Sabbat, closely followed by the moderates and the Loyalist. The Ultra-Conservatives were a really small faction.

                    And even so the biggest one was the Loyalist. Status Quo ruled in terms of political power, but the three big players were the Loyalist, the Black Hand and the Inquisition.

                    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 01-10-2019, 09:20 PM.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                      This is one reason I didn't like the Sabbat of Revised. It implied the "ultra-conservatives" (basically the Lasombra and Tzimisce who wanted to centralize and control the sect) had won. Where were the Sabbat Loyalists or other factions that opposed them? Revised presented one specific version of the Sabbat where older materials allowed STs to decide what to happen and what to emphasize. There's a lot of factions in the Sabbat, and most of them would not see any benefit to the heavily regimented control that some of the bishops wanted.

                      Even though I see the Sabbat as the best place to put the old school horror vampires who kill people without a moment's doubt and mass embrace their victims, does not mean it also can't hold concepts outside of that. The implied diversity within the Sabbat, and the conflicting goals of those factions so that it creates internal conflict is much more interesting to me than the "Sword of Caine" version. The first gives me lots to play with as an ST and PC. The second is just a wargame. And wargames are fun. But they aren't RPGs.
                      That was part of why I wanted to break it up in my games because I wanted the chance to present the various groups of the Sabbat.

                      Mind you, my players actually have expressed a desire for the old Sabbat to come back so my plan is unlikely to come to pass.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #71
                        The Sabbat never spoke of freedom in the modern sense of freedom, any liberal, socialist or Enlightenment concept is wrong.

                        The Sabbat is the sum of an inverted Catholic heresy with a blood cult heresy of Eastern Europe. Freedom has a mystical meaning. Freedom is Death. No forms of non-life or communitarianism or diversity. It is destruction because they believe that everything in this world is doomed to perish to the Antediluvians, everything in this world is enslaved to their will, everything has already been consumed now and not only in the apocalypse, everything must be killed to be restored to Cain's order.

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                        • #72
                          Religions of antiquity bring the notion of freedom by being a good subject, something that is contradictory to modern perception but in the ancient mystical sense is coherent within its own logic.

                          The Sabbat should not be thought out of its mystical structure, the name itself refers to something that is not mundane.

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                          • #73
                            A Purpose I disagree with Dexter's interpretation. Before, he clearly followed a Path of Enlightenment. There is no concern if what he does is good, not to try to be human, nor to justify failures. It has rules and must comply and if it fails it will be consumed by the dingy passenger. In the Fifth and Sixth Season that have tried to make him more human, therefore contradictory, but he can not afford to be contradictory, he has to follow his rules or he will be nothing more than an empty shell. And it is the selfish interest in not being an empty shell that guided him.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                              A Purpose I disagree with Dexter's interpretation. Before, he clearly followed a Path of Enlightenment. There is no concern if what he does is good, not to try to be human, nor to justify failures. It has rules and must comply and if it fails it will be consumed by the dingy passenger. In the Fifth and Sixth Season that have tried to make him more human, therefore contradictory, but he can not afford to be contradictory, he has to follow his rules or he will be nothing more than an empty shell. And it is the selfish interest in not being an empty shell that guided him.
                              Dexter very often struggled to relate to humanity through Rita and the kids. He also made multiple attempts to improve himself like his brief foray with religion, his addicts program, and discovering Harry was a flawed person.

                              The show was good, though, in that it addressed all these things and was open to interpretation.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #75
                                Something I have been chewing over recently as it pertains to V5, the tidbits we've learned thus far of the Sabbat and what state it is likely to take as the V5 details move forward, and some possible threads that could lean into this and also explain where some other content in V5 will land.

                                I think it is strongly possible that the Tzimisce of V5 will actually be the Old Clan variety from past editions. This would allow the Tzimisce to have a Discipline spread that does not contain any Clan specific Discipline stuff in the form of Vicissitude, and also keeps them from having to have Vicissitude lumped into Protean (since that has already had Serpentis lumped into as it stands).

                                This also leave room for them to continue with the idea that Vicissitude is a disease, and run with the Asakku concept being what the Sabbat has transformed into - a Sect that has been warped through the constant sharing of blood through the Vauldrie allowing the disease of Vicissitude to spread like wildfire through the Sect and morph it into something wildly monstrous in nature.

                                All of this seems like it is the potential logical continuation of the plot threads originally hinted at in the past editions, lines up with making it so the Tzimisce won't have to have a unique Discipline that no other Clan really has, and leaves the Sabbat that remains as something of a boogeyman monster figure that has been hinted at in the current V5 texts (and leaving the wildly nature and byproducts of Vicissitude to them, and more of a plot device like it seems it was originally intended to be).

                                I feel like there is actually a really strong chance that this might be the actual intended direction of things the more and more I keep chewing things over. It all just seems to add up to me, and I wanted to drop it somewhere and see what others might have to say about it.

                                Anyways, off to do some work and then get some sleep.


                                -Red
                                V20 Content: Age & Potency
                                V5 Content: The Masquerade, Tzimisce and Vicissitude, Loresheet: Chicago, Resonance Flavor
                                Development Manager, Developer at Hunters Entertainment

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