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  • Originally posted by trueann View Post

    May I ask about the source?
    man, that feel when someone asks for a source, and you realize you won't be able to sleep till you find it -_-


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    • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

      man, that feel when someone asks for a source, and you realize you won't be able to sleep till you find it -_-
      Oh, sorry about that.

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      • Originally posted by trueann View Post
        Oh, sorry about that.
        no need, I should've checked first

        and you were right

        they can't blood bond,
        I confused it with something else

        but, there is a section in the Guide to the Sabbat that contradicts the vaulderie rules,
        in Deep Cover Agents and the Vaulderie p.203, it suggests you can blood bond a sabbat

        I don't get it


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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          The Sabbat Civil Wars haven't been good for the Lasombra as each time, they indicate more and more the Clan has to be loyal to the cause over their own interests and every time, the Lasombra have become more and more footsoldiers to the religious death cult that cares very little whether they live or die. Every time they war, the Antitribu gain a bit more of a foothodl.

          https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Sabbat_Civil_Wars

          The Third Sabbat Civil War actually was huge loss for the Lasombra in terms of privileges as well as their power base.

          The 4th Sabbat Civil War seems to be basically all of their armies uprooting themselves and going to the Middle East, abandoning the Lasombra's hard won territory to go searching for Cthulhu and then using their ranks as cannon fodder.

          I don't see why being loyal to the Sabbat over the clan was a problem for the Lasombra that's something that is true for every sect since the Anarch Revolt. Many Camarillist of various clan put the Camarilla over their own clan loyalty too. That's nothing exceptional altough I guess it did hurts them a lot after the Amici Noci decided to create a new schism.

          Plus the Sabbat was created at the image of the clan. A darwinist and religious death cult. Fitting of what the Lasombra always were so naturally it is attractive to them.

          I strongly disagree that the third Sabbat civil war weakened the Lasombra in any way. The fact that they recognised that anti-tribu were equal in theory did not change the fact that most of the Bishops and Cardinals were Lasombra.
          Just like recognising that African American are human being deserving equal rights in the 60's did not mean a "huge loss" for white people.

          If anything it made everyone stronger with the sect getting more cohesion allowing the Sabbat to be able to fight the Camarilla almost as an equal despite their position of inferiority.


          I have no idea what happened in the fourth Sabbat civil war so I would abstain to comment there but it does seem that many Lasombra are now desesperate enough to accept what is basically an unconditional surrender to the Camarilla in exchange of their unlives so it must have been pretty bad for them.

          I am actually excited to know more about it. I always love fall from grace stories and the collapse of Clan Lasombra is quite fascinating indeed as again not Clan fell so fast and so hard than them.
          Especially now with the information you gave that apparently not only half of the clan became third class citizens in the Camarilla but they also apparently lost anykind of real power in the Sabbat so total failures all round.
          Last edited by Morbus; 12-23-2018, 09:24 PM.

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          • Originally posted by Morbus View Post
            I have no idea what happened in the fourth Sabbat civil war so I would abstain to comment there but it does seem that many Lasombra are now desesperate enough to accept what is basically an unconditional surrender to the Camarilla in exchange of their unlives so it must have been pretty bad for them.

            I am actually excited to know more about it. I always love fall from grace stories and the collapse of Clan Lasombra is quite fascinating indeed as again not Clan fell so fast and so hard than them.
            Especially now with the information you gave that apparently not only half of the clan became third class citizens in the Camarilla but they also apparently lost anykind of real power in the Sabbat so total failures all round.
            Well, the Lasombra have this:

            1. Polonia wanted a huge chunk of the Lasombra to abandon their cities to go hunt the Antes.
            2. They found out Lasombra was alive and eating large chunks of the Sabbat warriors there
            3. 19 out of 20 Sabbat died in the Crusade and the survivors were ancient blood crazed diablerists.
            4. The murders awakened many Ancients sleeping for millennia.

            But the Camarilla is utterly fucked.

            1. The Tremere are broken irrepairbaly
            2. Large chunks of the Ventrue, Toreador, and other High Clan Elders are in the Gehenna Crusade
            3. Hardestadt and his ilk are dead
            4. The gangrel and Brujah have left

            The Lasombra will rule the Camarilla as equals, the new 7th clan and can rule the sect itself in probably 50 years.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • The Lasombra are playing the long game. They’re letting the Ventrue et al. feel they’re surrendering, so as to help their old enemies accept them, but the reality is that the Camarilla is eager for what they can bring to the table. They’ve lost two clans in the past two decades, and with their war with the Inquisition flaring up, they can’t afford to be at war with the Sabbat too So a bunch of Lasombra show up, willing to spill the beans on Sabbat secrets and turn over a few cardinals — and their defection stands to cost the Sabbat a large portion of their overall number — and by one view it’s actually the Camarilla getting played.

              Also keep in mind that the Lasombra, unlike the Ventrue, have no particular need to be *seen* as powerful. They’ll take some shit for a few years, until suddenly the Camarilla realizes it can no longer function without them. ‘Cause the Lasombra have spent the past 500 years herding cats; the structure of the Camarilla is such that they could indeed be running the show in 50 years. This is a chessboard ideally suited to their talents.

              In other words, don’t fall for the ruse they’re pulling on the rest of their new compatriots. They know the Camarilla needs them as much as they need the Camarilla.

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              • I see the Camarilla having shifted from being a club that everyone could join but rejected THOSE people.

                And THOSE people were offended so they made their own club.

                Then they kicked out X and Y people before offering membership to THOSE people.

                And now it's a rich Country Club THOSE people and the other super rich can enjoy.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  I see the Camarilla having shifted from being a club that everyone could join but rejected THOSE people.

                  And THOSE people were offended so they made their own club.

                  Then they kicked out X and Y people before offering membership to THOSE people.

                  And now it's a rich Country Club THOSE people and the other super rich can enjoy.
                  Is any clear information given in V5 in regard to the current criteria - for individual Vampires, and for Clans - for membership in the Camarilla ?

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                  • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                    Is any clear information given in V5 in regard to the current criteria - for individual Vampires, and for Clans - for membership in the Camarilla ?
                    There was a lot in the Camarilla book, yes.

                    Basically, you need people to vouch for you and to be useful in some way to the establishment. Banishment from it is now a power which Prince wields.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      There was a lot in the Camarilla book, yes.

                      Basically, you need people to vouch for you and to be useful in some way to the establishment. Banishment from it is now a power which Prince wields.
                      Is there any indication that some of the "The Camarilla welcomes all Vampires ( well, of course not all - but it is an idea and an ideal ) . " attitude remains ? I always considered it to be so shrewd and nice.

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                      • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        Is there any indication that some of the "The Camarilla welcomes all Vampires ( well, of course not all - but it is an idea and an ideal ) . " attitude remains ? I always considered it to be so shrewd and nice.

                        No, the Camerilla is not full on elitist, those not useful to the Cam are not welcome. Anyone not in the Cam is considered an Anarch, regardless of if they self identify as one.

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                        • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                          Is there any indication that some of the "The Camarilla welcomes all Vampires ( well, of course not all - but it is an idea and an ideal ) . " attitude remains ? I always considered it to be so shrewd and nice.
                          No, it's been thoroughly discredited and also the book makes it clear this is incredibly stupid. I'm not sure if Matt Dawkins intended it but the "Elders throwing the Anarchs under the bus will make the situation so much worse" is highlighted as repeatedly making the same mistake of the original Inquisition Elders. The Camarilla is fully ascendant in the idea of them being the elite of Kindred society and everyone outside of it as scum.

                          They also really want to drive out MORE vampires so they can be even more exclusive but the Malkavians and Nosferatu are pressuring them to fill the vacant seats.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • Mind you, it makes perfect sense the Anarchs would be the ones who'd favor equality.

                            Which they do now.

                            All are welcome and equal among the Anarchs.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                              (...)
                              They also really want to drive out MORE vampires so they can be even more exclusive but the Malkavians and Nosferatu are pressuring them to fill the vacant seats.
                              Who would they drive out, and what would be their reasons or pretenses for doing this ? ( And who is 'they' , by the way ? The Princes, or the Justicars, or the Inner Circle ; or all of them ? ) I hope it's not something as stereotypical as annuling the membership of the Malkavians and the Nosferatu. For all that is written in the books about these two Clans being treated worse in some situations, they are still noted very often to be respected for who they are, and their capabilities - the general ones, and the ones that they excel in.

                              I just had this image of this direction continuating. In the end in the Elysiums there will be the Toreador, the Ventrue, and the Tremere - the three high society Clans - and the Lasombra. The Lasombra are also a high society Clan ( as far as I know ) , but are disallowed from many matters for half a century or so ; as part of their entry into the Camarilla. It's comical, but it also points to what I see as a lack of thought and consideration in V5 to the direction of development of the Camarilla.
                              Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-24-2018, 12:12 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                                They also really want to drive out MORE vampires so they can be even more exclusive but the Malkavians and Nosferatu are pressuring them to fill the vacant seats.
                                Citation please?

                                Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                                Is there any indication that some of the "The Camarilla welcomes all Vampires ( well, of course not all - but it is an idea and an ideal ) . " attitude remains ? I always considered it to be so shrewd and nice.
                                The Camarilla is more of a meritocracy now; you can be Embraced within the Camarilla by a Camarilla vampire, but that doesn't guarantee you membership. It's a club you have to earn your way into now, whereas it used to be 'every vampire is of the Camarilla, for their own protection, whether they believe it or not'. Now, anything 14th-16th Generation, Caitiff, openly claiming Anarch or Autarkis, and a couple of other criteria are considered 'Anarchs' by the Camarilla themselves.

                                The Camarilla consists of a majority of everything but the Brujah and Cangrel, plus the Banu Haqim schismatics. And even the Brujah didn't leave entirely, so there are still those there.

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