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  • Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post

    Citation please?
    Camarilla book. I was one of the preorders.




    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Camarilla book. I was one of the preorders.


      Ahh. I just got mine from Modiphius, and haven't read yet. Thansk.

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      • It’s not that the Camarilla doesn’t still claim rightful dominion over all vampires. They’re just no longer pretending that any lick who was embraced yesterday can rise in the ranks and become a primogen, prince, or justiciar somenight. So being a member of the Camarilla means you’re part of the ruling class. That ruling class is all too happy to rule over those who aren’t members.

        This is less of a shift than people think. It was always this way in practice; now they’re just dropping the pretense that nobody really believed anyway. I mean, the Anarchs were *always* pointing out that it was an aristocracy.
        Last edited by Black Flag; 12-25-2018, 08:49 PM.

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        • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
          It’s not that the Camarilla doesn’t still claim rightful dominion over all vampires. They’re just no longer pretending that any lick who was embraced yesterday can rise in the ranks and become a primogen, prince, or justiciar somenight. So being a member of the Camarilla means you’re part of the ruling class. That ruling class is all too happy to rule over those who aren’t members.

          This is less of a shift than people think. It was always this way in practice; now they’re just dropping the pretense that nobody really believed anyway. I mean, the Anarchs were *always* pointing out that it was an aristocracy.

          Which is kind of weird, because apparently the plot for 5E is that the oldest and most powerful vampires just experienced The Quickening (getting called off to war), and now the younger ones have a chance to replace them.

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          • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


            Which is kind of weird, because apparently the plot for 5E is that the oldest and most powerful vampires just experienced The Quickening (getting called off to war), and now the younger ones have a chance to replace them.
            Hypocrisy IN THE CAMARILLA?

            MADNESS!


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • Who has decided and enforced the V5's new approach and rules in the Camarilla ?

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              • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                Which is kind of weird, because apparently the plot for 5E is that the oldest and most powerful vampires just experienced The Quickening (getting called off to war), and now the younger ones have a chance to replace them.
                Sure, but the Beckoning is as big or as little a deal as individual Storytellers choose. However, if you do go with the idea that room is opening up in the middle management, that’s a better-than-ever reason to join and kiss ass so you can fill such a spot when it comes vacant.

                One of the suggested coterie types is a group of neonates who manage the affairs of a Beckoned elder, acting as their proxy. What really matters is that you’re in the club, and the club respects the wisdom of the elders, at least in theory. There are more neonate princes popping up these nights, but that was always a thankless job that true elders avoided.

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                • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
                  (...) There are more neonate princes popping up these nights, but that was always a thankless job that true elders avoided.
                  Shouldn't it be Anncilae who would be becoming Princes in such circumstances ? Did something happen in V5 in regard to them ?

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                  • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                    Shouldn't it be Anncilae who would be becoming Princes in such circumstances ? Did something happen in V5 in regard to them ?
                    In fact, I would say that most princes are ancillae, and I imagine they’re the ones best suited to the role in these nights. I was just noting that the neonate prince is an increasingly common phenomenon. See Chicago for example.

                    The neonate prince is an exciting prospect for young Kindred, but its popularity among the elders of a city is probably for entirely different reasons.

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                    • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post

                      In fact, I would say that most princes are ancillae, and I imagine they’re the ones best suited to the role in these nights. I was just noting that the neonate prince is an increasingly common phenomenon. See Chicago for example.

                      The neonate prince is an exciting prospect for young Kindred, but its popularity among the elders of a city is probably for entirely different reasons.
                      Neonates seem to be too young and inexperienced ( relatively to older Vampires ) to be Princes. I imagine that cities where this happens would be extremely rare. I am reasoning along the lines of : wouldn't a situation in which a Neonate can become a Prince result in an Ancilla claiming this position instead ?

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                      • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        Neonates seem to be too young and inexperienced ( relatively to older Vampires ) to be Princes. I imagine that cities where this happens would be extremely rare. I am reasoning along the lines of : wouldn't a situation in which a Neonate can become a Prince result in an Ancilla claiming this position instead ?
                        What I was getting at was this: in a city where the local primogen would rather have a weak or neutral prince — whether because they want the prince to be a malleable figurehead while they themselves do the governing, or because they can’t agree on a prospect since all the ancillae are too entrenched in one political faction or other — they might settle on a neonate. This is almost never a good thing for that neonate, even if it looks good on the outside.

                        As for why an ancilla wouldn’t claim the position, two reasons: 1) The Camarilla doesn’t work by fiat; the office of prince is a magistracy that requires the backing of the primogen or sometimes a higher authority like a justicar. It’s not like medieval times when it was the most powerful vampire in the domain. 2) It can be a thankless job and rather dangerous, so truly powerful vampires tend to avoid it, with a handful of high-profile exceptions. Some ancillae probably would want it, but others would recognize it for the honey trap it is and prefer to rule from behind the throne like most true elders do.

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                        • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                          Neonates seem to be too young and inexperienced ( relatively to older Vampires ) to be Princes. I imagine that cities where this happens would be extremely rare. I am reasoning along the lines of : wouldn't a situation in which a Neonate can become a Prince result in an Ancilla claiming this position instead ?
                          Kevin Jackson's response to that is having the guy gunned down and tossed on a tire fire.

                          He's richer, smarter, and more powerful than most Ancilla.

                          The thing is with V5 since there's no Disciplines over 6. There's nothing stopping Neonates from being every bit as rich or powerful as Elders.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            Kevin Jackson's response to that is having the guy gunned down and tossed on a tire fire.

                            He's richer, smarter, and more powerful than most Ancilla.

                            The thing is with V5 since there's no Disciplines over 6. There's nothing stopping Neonates from being every bit as rich or powerful as Elders.
                            That too. It’s fair to say neonates have more to prove, but some of them are perfectly capable of proving it.

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                            • Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
                              (...)
                              2) It can be a thankless job and rather dangerous, so truly powerful vampires tend to avoid it, with a handful of high-profile exceptions. Some ancillae probably would want it, but others would recognize it for the honey trap it is and prefer to rule from behind the throne like most true elders do.
                              Do you know any other traits and characteristics of these 'true Elders' that you mention ?

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                              • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                                Do you know any other traits and characteristics of these 'true Elders' that you mention ?
                                The real elder vampires tend to engage in the Jyhad on a different level from the neonates and ancillae, often from the shadows. This was established as far back as the original Chicago by Night, where the prince was far from the oldest vampire in the city and was just another piece in the games they played with each other, albeit a significant one.

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