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  • Imthestein
    replied
    I was just rereading the Oblivion writeup and I noticed they had a Lasombra texting just fine without any problems. I think this shows it's only their voice and seeing them on camera that are a problem. But honestly, most people text than call nowadays anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rahmel
    replied
    Aww man. I wanted to play them so badly too.

    I don't even think their powers(which have so much drawbacks already)make up for all these weakness. Hardly the strongest vampires. Any loresheet buffs or anything?

    Leave a comment:


  • Montoya
    replied
    Or buy a smartphone with a Pen, like a samsung galaxy note.

    Btw, i like the new bane and compulsion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Redwulfe
    replied
    So, it seems to me that the pushback on this is over-exaggerated. Though I am willing to work on alternate methods to help out at some point enough is just enough, for me at least.

    I have played Shadowrun for a long time in a high danger black trenchcoat game. The kind where combat rarely happens and you have to make a new character up every 6 months or so and that is if you are good at the game. The number of people over the years that I have seen who have gremlins in shadowrun is higher than I would like but as annoying in a Cyberpunk game as it is, they got along just fine. There are numerous ways to work around this Bane and not need a single dot in Technology, so you never have to make the roll. Also not being able to be identified on cameras is a plus not a minus no matter which way you try to spin it. It is a benefit. In Shadowrun I would give my hind teeth to have that but Banes should not be benefits.

    Now granted this is not Shadowrun but in Shadowrun you rely on tech much more than you do in Vampire and you don't have the easy out of blood bonding some mortal to do stuff for you. On top of that gremlins effects all tech not just communications you are recorded on. Also their are a lot of people that are trying to hunt you down all the time in SR and everyone is identifiable on camera. We of course find ways around that and do it quite often even without a hacker in the team. Which by the way was, for 90% of the SR history, a character class that GMs typically banned from play and had an NPC do the job for you. Huh, can we hire someone to get rid of the video for us? Heck we don't have to hire them we have a ghoul for that.

    Vampires who have lived for as long as they have and actively worked on keeping a Masqurade would know how to get around in this day and age without being noticed and be able to use technology we have in the modern era as well.

    I am sorry that this may come off rough but use some imagination. Players have worked around a lot worse, heck I even got past Bone of Lies in large LARPs for years to infiltrate Camarilla cities in OWBN. they thought they used it on me but I was in control of what the bones told them was a lie or not and I only used $20 at a costume shop to do so. For those of you that will question that Bone of Lies required skin contact and liquid latex and a bit of obfuscate to hide my "burn scars" does the trick at keeping it from contacting my skin. Put a slit in it so I can get skin contact when I want and poof, F your truth detector. This is why in our area they started shoving it through peoples hands but thats when I would use my friends technique of pretending I was crazy and get in a fight with the bone over my name burning it out while they frantically tried to pull it from me because they didn't want to lose their precious magic item, but I digress.

    If you aren't seeing ways around it just ask, How would you get around such? Instead of over sensationalizing the problem find out if it really as bad of a problem as others are saying. Or trying to get it watered down because easy mode is the name of the game now a days. We are here to help and it really isn't that bad of a Bane. Lets not play in the world of Dim and Fuzzy, shall we?

    Character sheet after sheet seems to emphasize the powers the character gets over the common sense stuff like a retainer or a good haven. All people seem to look at is what powers does he have and not what backgrounds do they have. Think like a vampire instead of a wannabe superhero for gods sake. Use your backgrounds, they are how you get around Banes and get you the things you need to really gain power in a city. Just look at Jackson. He is not the prince because he can kick your butt he is the prince because he has people who can burn you out of your haven during the day. He is a shining example of thinking outside the box and solving a problem. And yes they didn't write the backgrounds in to give the STs some suppress factors which is great because that is where a true Vampires power lies. So you can see his disciplines all you want but you don't get to see the actual thing that will get you killed like his underworld contacts.

    I get it many people now a days grew up on video games where the direct approach or a script that was given to you was your only way of playing but this is a true RPG and not a game where you walk out of an restricted area and the security guard shoots you instead of trying to put you under arrest like what would happen in the real world. I'm talking to you Bloodlines. But in the end that is the difference between a video game and a TT game. in Video games all you can do is focus on your power and feats and not the intangibles that require an ST to adjudicate. You can't code that.

    So please use some imagination, don't get immediately defeated and if you think it is harsh ask around for some tricks to get around it instead of declaring it unplayable and rage to get it changed.

    My vote, Clarify the wording so it is clear that it only effects audio and visual transmissions from/of you and don't change the Bane.

    Leave a comment:


  • Monalfie
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    However, the most rational player response to the mechanic for this is to buy up their Technology score as high as possible.
    It would seem most rational if you wanted to work around it to have a retainer to use your phone for you.

    The problem is how it may impact player behavior. With this flaw, there are two rational responses from the player.

    First, is to avoid any roll they might fail for fear of being handicapped on all rolls. This leads to timid characters, unwilling to take risks. Does that sound like the Lasombra?
    I mean, this argument could be made about any risk.

    Second, is to game the system. When the Compulsion becomes active, immediately attempt a simple, easily retried activity. For example, wad up a piece of paper and throw it into a wastebasket that is placed far enough away to be a difficulty 1 Dexterity+Athletics roll. Keep throwing until there is a miss. Now, just keep throwing until you make it. There, Compulsion over. This strategy is silly and not appropriate to the mood of the setting, but how would an ST deny it's efficacy?
    I would argue there is third rational option, which is to genuinely play your character without trying to game the system or avoid risk.

    Leave a comment:


  • Epimetreus
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    SMS would be operating technology by touch Does that come in or not?
    You can use a $5 or $10 plastic stylus with a capacitative tip to text or email from a phone. No direct transmission of your voice or image or spirit or whatever is required. Anything else, like others have said, use a retainer.

    If I were playing a Lasombra, though, I’d get a fancy metal stylus with a capacitative tip. No reason to look down-market.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cifer
    replied
    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    The problem, at the base of it, isn't that they lose knowledge of how to use phones. The problem is contradictory motifs.

    The Lasombra become a clan whose flaw is that they are bad at technology. However, the most rational player response to the mechanic for this is to buy up their Technology score as high as possible.

    This leaves us with contradictory motifs: a clan that is bad with gadgets, which is also a clan full of people good at using gadgets.
    I disagree. Most people would likely just discard the technology angle alltogether - you need 6 dice to reliably make the roll at Bane Strength 1, when ability levels in 5 have generally gone down.

    Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
    May I suggest a Compulsion which forces Lasombra to betray those who trust them? When the Compulsion is activated, the Lasombra has their current goal replaced with the new goal, "Betray someone who trusts you". No willpower is gained by completing the goal. This need not be a monumental betrayal. They could hunt down their sire and kill her, or they could offer a stranger help carrying a heavy package, then run off with it. Once the betrayal is achieved, a new goal emerges, as usual.

    This Compulsion is subtler, has a direct mechanical impact which requires little administration on the part of the ST, and explains a great deal about Lasombra clan culture.
    Eh, not my cup of tea. That one either leads to Lasombra pranksters (the package idea) or makes them rather incapable of acting in a group. Just use the original Compulsion, but have it end together with the current scene.

    Leave a comment:


  • Nosimplehiway
    replied
    Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post

    They don't lose knowledge of how to use a phone, they come across as static on the other end, much as they don't show up effectively on recording software.
    The problem, at the base of it, isn't that they lose knowledge of how to use phones. The problem is contradictory motifs.

    The Lasombra become a clan whose flaw is that they are bad at technology. However, the most rational player response to the mechanic for this is to buy up their Technology score as high as possible.

    This leaves us with contradictory motifs: a clan that is bad with gadgets, which is also a clan full of people good at using gadgets.

    A prime example of this in earlier editions were the Ventrue. Their flaw of a highly selective palate worked nicely to portray themes of the debauched aristocrat and self-flagellating martyr. Once player behavior was introduced to the mix, we got Ventrue with high Dominate, Presence and Herd who, on average, could feed with greater ease and dependability than the average Nosferatu or Gangrel.

    The broad outlines of the V5 flaw are fine. The system demands a weakness that scales with Blood Potency, so an all-or-nothing invisibility in mirrors had to go. I agree there is need for a new mechanical representation of the "mirror flaw". This one feels too specific, and too easily min/maxed out of.

    Perhaps, the Lasombra are unable to register properly on any external media which relies on the equivalent of sight or hearing. Mirrors, automatic doors, face recognition software, thumb print analysis, telephones, video conferencing, back-up cameras on cars, etc. all convey a deeply distorted, strangely ominous phantasm, rather than either the true image or full ninja-mode invisibility.

    Scale the Bane by allowing them to override the effects for one turn by succeeding at a Willpower roll at a difficulty equal to their Blood Potency. This, of course, still encourages players to invest in a trait which mitigates the Bane, but at least it is a trait which fits well for the Lasombra.

    ......

    As for the Compulsion, the problem isn't its harshness. Though it is quite harsh, this is the WoD, and there are winners and losers. Unfairness is fair play.

    The problem is how it may impact player behavior. With this flaw, there are two rational responses from the player.

    First, is to avoid any roll they might fail for fear of being handicapped on all rolls. This leads to timid characters, unwilling to take risks. Does that sound like the Lasombra?

    Second, is to game the system. When the Compulsion becomes active, immediately attempt a simple, easily retried activity. For example, wad up a piece of paper and throw it into a wastebasket that is placed far enough away to be a difficulty 1 Dexterity+Athletics roll. Keep throwing until there is a miss. Now, just keep throwing until you make it. There, Compulsion over. This strategy is silly and not appropriate to the mood of the setting, but how would an ST deny it's efficacy?

    (I will admit, the second response may explain their fascination with chess, but it's still silly.)

    May I suggest a Compulsion which forces Lasombra to betray those who trust them? When the Compulsion is activated, the Lasombra has their current goal replaced with the new goal, "Betray someone who trusts you". No willpower is gained by completing the goal. This need not be a monumental betrayal. They could hunt down their sire and kill her, or they could offer a stranger help carrying a heavy package, then run off with it. Once the betrayal is achieved, a new goal emerges, as usual.

    This Compulsion is subtler, has a direct mechanical impact which requires little administration on the part of the ST, and explains a great deal about Lasombra clan culture.

    Leave a comment:


  • Faerl
    replied
    Originally posted by Dreamwalker View Post
    I cant stop thinking about John the Vampire Hunter, who walk into a night club, draw out his smartphone and scan the crowd with its camera for any sign of static. Then he has another Lasombra staked.

    Good way to identify a Lasombra as long as they are the only one to generate this reply ...
    How much time before a mage develop a spell to hide that produce the same effect of Lasombra on video ?
    How much time before a technofile create a scrambler that make smeone appear like a Lasombra on video ?

    If hunters will try to prevent these kind of tools and spell, Vampires will be happy to finance them to add misdirection and enforce the Mascarade.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dreamwalker
    replied
    Originally posted by Cifer View Post
    For anyone who is able to watch the recording live and get boots on the ground, the difference is zero. It's an advantage only if the vampire gets spotted by a camera, their recording is later watched by someone who knows what's going on and they learn nothing by simply watching where the vampire goes.
    I cant stop thinking about John the Vampire Hunter, who walk into a night club, draw out his smartphone and scan the crowd with its camera for any sign of static. Then he has another Lasombra staked.

    Leave a comment:


  • chipotlechris
    replied
    Microphones, cameras and mirrors struggle to pick them up. That’s the “technology” they struggle with. Why on earth would they struggle with sending a text!? (Of course touchscreens don’t work properly for ANY vampire)

    Also, anyone saying this breaks them as a clan - phones are generally considered a no-no these days due to the SI so it’s not like every kindred will be always on them anyway. This is clearly meant to add atmosphere and drama so if your ST won’t allow basic communication to arrange when to meet with your coterie, then you should point them at the Golden Rule.

    It makes you wonder how we all lived in those halcyon days before mobile phones. 10 years ago. Revolutionary, everyone suddenly realised they could meet thier friends for the first time ever! It was Glorious!

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
    What, people still use phones to make calls? I think the Lasombra will be all right.
    SMS would be operating technology by touch Does that come in or not?

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Flag
    replied
    What, people still use phones to make calls? I think the Lasombra will be all right.

    Leave a comment:


  • Theodrim
    replied
    Chalk me up into the "oh, they actually have a flaw now, as opposed to something that can be weaponized in the hands of an experienced player?" camp. Obfuscate is learned easily enough, it has ridiculous synergy with Obtenebration as it is, and that synergy effectively made Lasombra nigh-on undetectable, period, if the player behind them knew their stuff. Most Nosferatu players I know personally or online, consider Casts no Reflection a merit you get freebies for buying, which offsets False Reflection by 33% of its point cost.

    Hell, I played a Lasombra PC not too long ago who had the triple threat of Obfuscate, Obtenebration, and Melpominee, and above that the ST allowed me to swap Black Metamorphosis for Nightshades. The only way that character was getting detected was if he damn well wanted to be, and even then there was about a 97% chance he was acting (and speaking!) through a Nightshade -- the 3% was him using Mask of a Thousand Faces to appear corporeal while he was not.

    I know a few ST's who go so far as to house rule Lasombra share Setites' dice pool/difficulty penalties in bright light, due to how toothless their flaw really is, and how it can be weaponized to the player's benefit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cifer
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    One of the things I consider is how individuals, or the clan will be affected by the weakness/bane and what that looks like.
    Old Assamites - Addicted to Vitae- They get viewed as a clan of Diablerists
    Ventrue - Known to maintain herd of their blood type
    Nosferatu - Hide from society

    Now, the new Lasombra bane - Every Lasombra has a man servant for making calls or using equipment. it's a one point retainer, and they relay all messages for phone calls, or use the ATM for them. The servant ends up like a mage's familiar in D&D and forgotten about most of the time, except when the ST calls for a roll to use tech and the PC says "Wait, I've got someone for this"

    Not everyone will do this, but I bet that enough will that it becomes trope-worthy.

    But with the design of levels of Banes and the theme of Lasombra past - I don't see this having gone any other way.
    You need something that can get increasingly bad rather than on/off, cameras and communication is the understandable extension of reflections in Mirrors.
    Also interested in the 2+ Severity instead of just at severity, since none others (that jump out at me) have that additional penalty

    Maybe when communicating by anything other than direct in person conversation, the bane applies to things being taken as they are meant (The spirit) since the reflection was about the soul being missing. A Difficulty increase to get across what you mean.
    I think it's sometimes 2+BS for rolls that wouldn't exist without the Bane and +BS for rolls that just get harder.

    Originally posted by Redwulfe View Post
    This once again makes their bane into a merit and not a Bane. As you point out the benifts to their Bane.
    No. The usual mechanical Bane part (2+BS tech rolls to communicate, +BS to detector evasion) remain fully intact. It's just that the additional drawback (recording is automatically identified as a vampire by anyone in the know) is counteracted by an additional benefit (recording is not identified as the character). For anyone who is able to watch the recording live and get boots on the ground, the difference is zero. It's an advantage only if the vampire gets spotted by a camera, their recording is later watched by someone who knows what's going on and they learn nothing by simply watching where the vampire goes.

    Leave a comment:

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