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  • #76
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I assume it's more practically, "A Cardinal has a lot to lose defecting. So the Lasombra aren't even trying to recruit them."
    I see Cardinals as Vampires who would lose relatively little ; and even if they would lose much, it would be in the short term. They have stable powerbases and extensive resources ( or some other equivalent capabilities ) that can enable a ( relatively ) smooth entry into the Camarilla for them.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
      I see Cardinals as Vampires who would lose relatively little ; and even if they would lose much, it would be in the short term. They have stable powerbases and extensive resources ( or some other equivalent capabilities ) that can enable a ( relatively ) smooth entry into the Camarilla for them.
      To each their own.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
        I see Cardinals as Vampires who would lose relatively little ; and even if they would lose much, it would be in the short term. They have stable powerbases and extensive resources ( or some other equivalent capabilities ) that can enable a ( relatively ) smooth entry into the Camarilla for them.

        Cardinals are the leadership of the Sabbat. They would be most directly involved in pushing the war on the Camerilla. Well, we know whos won that war. So the Cam calling for Cardinals to be sacrificed isn't shocking.

        I do like that we have understandable reasons for the Lasombra to switch sides. Thanks to the insane Crusader War the Sabbat has turned into, you now have former Sabbat cities where half the vampire population has turned Anarch. Think about that? That is a whole lot of Anarchs in the world now. Young restless vampires that are going to be plenty violent against the monstrous Sabbat. As the text says, the difference between Venture and Lasombra is that the clan of kings want to rule while the friends of the night only care about winning. The older Lasombra were never believers in the sabbat, much like they used the church for their own ends, they used Sabbat to enhance their power.

        In the short, the reasons for a Lasombra defection are exact as I predicted they would be. 1) Camarilla accepts that antidulivans exist and are opposed to them 2) The Sabbat are no longer viable tool to manipulate for power and a third requirement that I didn't think of but makes perfect sense, 3) Amici Noctis backed the switch of allegiance and were the main drive behind it. The elders led the way.

        I like that not all Lasombra approved and the younger the vampire the more likely he was a strong sabbat supporter. So this is in part a civil war between the young and the old in the clan with the elders and just plan self-interested jumping ship for a simple reason. Clan Lasombra likes winning above all else and right now the Camerilla are the clear winners.

        Also, I like how the Amici Noctis defined this not just as a switch of allegiance but a switch of moral system as well. Its time for the Lasombra to reject monstrous natures and resume the guise of the wolves among sheep, the via humanitatis. They fear the second inquisition so much they are willing to sell out their own and even insist that their clan change their whole moral system (which is quite a feat) just to survive. Why is the path of humanity so important? It helps you relate to and influence the Kine. Turns out having influence in the church can provide useful intel on the second inquisition which the Camerilla would find very useful.

        The whole concept of a Masquerade Templar is a fantastic idea for a Lasombra in the Camerilla. Fighting vampire hunters and Sabbat Lasombra who view you as the ultimate traitors sounds like an exciting character to roleplay. Another interesting roleplaying idea is how do monstrous Lasombra transition back to the path of humanity? Thats far from an easy task and that could easily be the focus of a chronicle. Think about the loresheet, descendants of Vasantasena and its 5 dot: "Sabbat to Camarilla". Helping monstrous Sabbat vampires rediscover their humanity.

        P.S. If you've watched Game of Thrones and remember the "chaos is a ladder" speech, that is the perfect example of the mindset of a Lasombra. "Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is." A perfectly nihilistic philosophy for a clan of psychopaths.
        Last edited by Wissenschaft; 12-15-2018, 05:14 PM.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Wissenschaft View Post


          Cardinals are the leadership of the sabbat. They would be most directly involved in pushing the war on Camerilla.
          The first answer that comes to mind is the Camarilla of course ; but maybe it was a war that in the end nobody won ? In the Revised Ventrue Clanbook it is described that some Ventrue Vampires in the Camarilla hold the view point that the hostilities with the Sabbat are senseless and should be ended.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
            The first answer that comes to mind is the Camarilla of course ; but maybe it was a war that in the end nobody won ? In the Revised Ventrue Clanbook it is described that some Ventrue Vampires in the Camarilla hold the view point that the hostilities with the Sabbat are senseless and should be ended.

            Oh I agree that no one really won the war. The Sabbat just split and half or more went on some insane crusade into the middle east. But you think any Camarilla prince is going to admit that? Yeah right, they'll be rubbing the Lasombra's face in the mud for a while. As the text say, time for the Magisters to suck it up for the team if they want to survive and get back to winning. Those with too big an ego or "shock and gasp" are true believers in the sabbat will have to be eliminated. The lesson? Clan always comes first. (Something the Tremere and Venture know well).

            P.S. I like how the Lasombra have gone back to using Magister as their nickname instead of Keepers. Its a return of the clan to their dark age roots.
            Last edited by Wissenschaft; 12-15-2018, 05:22 PM.

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            • #81
              I explained my opinion on a Facebook Group that part of the issue some people have is you have to take the fact V5 is building on itself. A lot of people hate certain changes (Gehenna Crusade, the Second Inquisition, and so on) so they try to separate it all from each other when all of these things are being built upon.

              The Lasombra are joining the Camarilla because:

              The Camarilla is weak and ripe for the plucking

              1. The Tremere have lost their Inner Council
              2. The Inner Circle of the Camarilla has lost at least 4 members (Tremere, Gangrel, Brujah, Hardestat)
              3. The Banu Haqim have joined the Camarilla, changing the balance of power
              4. The leadership of the Ventrue in their safe and secure Methuselahs have been Beckoned as have many other Elders.
              5. They've banished the Brujah and Gangrel

              So there's a massive power vacuum as well as new shifting political ground for the Lasombra to enter.

              The Sabbat are at their most uncontrollable

              1. The Gehenna Crusade is making the Neonates a possessed bunch of psychopaths who are addicted to diablerie and as likely to eat the Lasombra as the Camarilla (more likely in fact).
              2. The Amis Noctis Lasombra is alive and that means their entire belief they could kill the Antediluvians is based on a lie. They took a shot at the devil and missed.
              3. 9/10th of the people on the Gehenna Crusade are dying, meaning its a suicide run. The Lasombra didn't found this cult to drink the Kool-Aid themselves.
              4. The Second Inquisition has shown mortals are not a bunch of pushovers and they're more or less the most obviously getting slaughtered aside from London and other CCTV cities. Suddenly the Masquerade is a lot more sensible.

              If you're a mid-tier or non-Cardinal Lasombra Elder then the grass will look much greener.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                (...)
                2. The Amis Noctis Lasombra is alive and that means their entire belief they could kill the Antediluvians is based on a lie. They took a shot at the devil and missed.
                Are you saying this based on some events that happened in regard to [ Lasombra ] in V5 or V20 ?

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                  Are you saying this based on some events that happened in regard to [ Lasombra ] in V5 or V20 ?
                  Beckett's Jyhad Diary


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #84
                    unable to abandon monstrosity
                    Some Amicii Noctii are going to feel this one... (As well as half the older, or less older lasombras, which we can assume are following a path).

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Darthpalpy View Post
                      Some Amicii Noctii are going to feel this one... (As well as half the older, or less older lasombras, which we can assume are following a path).
                      As I have pointed out before, the loresheet "follower of Vasantasena" has a 5 dot merit called "Sabbat becomes Camarilla". The names a bit on the nose, don't you think? :P It allows vampires to break free from the alien philosophies of the Sabbat with something as simple as an extended test. I imagine Vasantasena herself might be helping guide Lasombra in reclaiming their humanity. After all, shes always been against the paths of enlightenment and was one of the few champions of the path of humanity in the Sabbat. The Lasombra switching sides and rejecting monstrousness for humanity and the Camerilla declaring to be against the antediluvians must be like winning the lottery to her.

                      Note: this loresheet's 4 dot merit allows you to easily break blood bonds as well. All hail Vasantasena! Rumor has it the repeated use of this ability is in part responsible for the current collapse of the Sabbat. I think the Sabbat are still around but outside the middle east crusade its going to be smaller nomadic packs and far less cities under complete control of the sabbat. It seems what sabbat cities are left are going to be under siege from anarch rebellions.

                      These rebellions could be caused by Vasantasena and her followers breaking the vaulderie among several cities. If this really happened it would go a long way in explaining why the Sabbat seems to be disintegrating.
                      Last edited by Wissenschaft; 12-17-2018, 12:46 AM.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                        So, we're getting SOME of the reasons the Lasombra defected (well, half of them) to the Camarilla. Please share your thoughts on this.

                        My thoughts on this are that the Lasombra have tarnished their reputation in such a way that it will take centuries for them to recover, if that is even possible.

                        Ever since the Sabbat was formed, the Lasombra have been fanatically hell bent on keeping their members away from defecting to the Camarilla, going so far as to lay siege to entire cities just to hunt down ONE traitor.

                        They also fancy themselves as the leaders of the Sabbat, a sect which has devoted its entire existence to hunting down and destroying the Antedeluvians in an effort to circumvent Gehenna.

                        And now, in 5th edition, when it is finally time for the Sabbat to take action and prove to the world that they were right to be prepared... what does the clan do?


                        They pull up stakes, leave the sect and petition the Camarilla for membership, right when the Sabbat needs their guidance the most!

                        I'm sorry, but this is what we refer to as a "bitch move!"


                        The Lasombra talked a big game, but when they were finally asked to put up or shut up, they chose to shut up and fall in line with Camarilla law.

                        The Lasombra aren't lords of the night, they're cowardly punks. And I no longer see any reason to respect them!


                        EDIT: And as for them gloating about having power within the church, we'll just see how long that particular power base lasts.

                        I was under the impression that the Inquisition was created specifically because vampires were trying to manipulate the church? If a second inquisition is on the move, then this can only spell disaster for the nights ahead!
                        Last edited by Nyrufa; 12-17-2018, 04:42 PM.

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                        • #87
                          @Nyrufa Well, half the Lasombra are staying in the Sabbat so I imagine they feel exactly as you do about the traitors.

                          I will note though that the Lasombra haven't abandoned their war on the Antedeluvians. Now that the Camarilla recognizes the the threat of the ancients, the elder Lasombra have just made the cold hearted calculation that the Cam is a more useful tool than the current collapsing Sabbat in their war against the Antedeluvians. The threat of the Inquisition reinforces the need for stronger mortal influence in the clan and that is facilitated by the path of humanity. It also reinforces the need for a strong masquerade.
                          Last edited by Wissenschaft; 12-17-2018, 05:35 PM.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                            My thoughts on this are that the Lasombra have tarnished their reputation in such a way that it will take centuries for them to recover, if that is even possible.

                            Ever since the Sabbat was formed, the Lasombra have been fanatically hell bent on keeping their members away from defecting to the Camarilla, going so far as to lay siege to entire cities just to hunt down ONE traitor.

                            They also fancy themselves as the leaders of the Sabbat, a sect which has devoted its entire existence to hunting down and destroying the Antedeluvians in an effort to circumvent Gehenna.

                            And now, in 5th edition, when it is finally time for the Sabbat to take action and prove to the world that they were right to be prepared... what does the clan do?


                            They pull up stakes, leave the sect and petition the Camarilla for membership, right when the Sabbat needs their guidance the most!

                            I'm sorry, but this is what we refer to as a "bitch move!"


                            The Lasombra talked a big game, but when they were finally asked to put up or shut up, they chose to shut up and fall in line with Camarilla law.

                            The Lasombra aren't lords of the night, they're cowardly punks. And I no longer see any reason to respect them!


                            EDIT: And as for them gloating about having power within the church, we'll just see how long that particular power base lasts.

                            I was under the impression that the Inquisition was created specifically because vampires were trying to manipulate the church? If a second inquisition is on the move, then this can only spell disaster for the nights ahead!
                            They pull up stakes literally because:
                            1. The Sabbat majority has become diablerie-happy crazy people, not as concerned with the fight agains the Antes as they are with the *everything else* that the Sabbat is presented as (IE: the monstrous aspects of the Sabbat). This is something the Lasombra big wigs are concerned about greatly.
                            2. The Lasombra are hit hard in the Gehenna Crusade, with less and less coming back from war parties.
                            3. The Lasombra see the Sabbat crrumbling in areas under the Second Inquisition's strikes.
                            4. Their Antediluvian (or something close enough to make a lot of Lasombra believe it was), who is supposed to be dead (because they claim, openly, that they killed it as a tout to their superiority) showed up, on multiple battlefields in the Middle East and tried to hoover up its childer.

                            It's a change, and they're trying to put themselves into a new position of power and safety. Play the long game. Rather than ''RAA IMMA BLOOD MONSTER LETS GO KILL SOMETHING WE SAID WE ALREADY KILLED!' It's also about 50%, there are still plenty of Lasombra that follow the Sabbat methodology left in the Sabbat.

                            As far as the Inquisition, the original inquisition came about in part because of that (as well as other Kindred grabbing power and not really caring who saw, essentially the near-public if not public lording over humans in the Dark Ages), yes. The Second Inquisition is not a name they call themselves however, and aren't built by the curch; it's a name that was coined by a Toreador, according to the V5 core, but is not their actual name (internally the organization is FIRSTLIGHT). The SI is more like Project Twilight on steroids, with some additional input from the Church via the Society of St. Leopold, but it's primarily a government black op under their own 'masquerade' of all this stuff their doing as counter-terrorism and various related material.

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                            • #89
                              Nyrufa
                              Eh - the Lasombra have been fanatical about keeping their members away from defecting from the Clan. If the Clan as a whole decides that a new direction is warranted, well, that's a different thing. Also, our knowledge of the Sabbat interna is currently rather limited. We know they lost a lot. Perhaps up to the point that remaining with them might, in practice, not be so much "sticking with them and guiding them" as "going down with the ship" - in which case, screw that, the Antedeluvians aren't getting defeated by nobly dying! If the Sabbat isn't the best tool for fighting them, perhaps the Camarilla, now that their existence is proven pretty much beyond a doubt, is a more useful ally for achieving the very same goal.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                                Ever since the Sabbat was formed, the Lasombra have been fanatically hell bent on keeping their members away from defecting to the Camarilla, going so far as to lay siege to entire cities just to hunt down ONE traitor.
                                Considering this was largely a weak lore excuse for why yet another major clan created after the game's initial writeup wasn't around in the Camarilla, I'm not sad to see it go.

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