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  • #91
    Honestly, I think separating the Lasombra from the Sabbat needed to happen. If I open my copy of V20 and turn to the Lasombra write-up, it's almost all about the Sabbat: how the Lasombra like the Sabbat, and tend to be leaders in the Sabbat, and so forth. They have a splash of "old nobility" flavor, but the sense of clan identity I got was almost all about supporting the Sabbat.

    And I think all that would be totally fine if the Sabbat were a one-clan operation like the Assamites or Giovanni, but the Lasombra are sharing the stage with the Tzimisce, and the Tzimisce are also doing the "old vampiric nobility who lead the Sabbat" routine very well on top of their own unique "hideous alien monsters who reshape flesh to their bidding" schtick.

    It's just interesting to see the Lasombra develop some more personality independent from the sect they're part of.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post

      As far as the Inquisition, the original inquisition came about in part because of that (as well as other Kindred grabbing power and not really caring who saw, essentially the near-public if not public lording over humans in the Dark Ages), yes. The Second Inquisition is not a name they call themselves however, and aren't built by the curch; it's a name that was coined by a Toreador, according to the V5 core, but is not their actual name (internally the organization is FIRSTLIGHT). The SI is more like Project Twilight on steroids, with some additional input from the Church via the Society of St. Leopold, but it's primarily a government black op under their own 'masquerade' of all this stuff their doing as counter-terrorism and various related material.


      And I'm sure that absolutely nobody in the entire SI has / will ever consider asking a theologian about how to combat supernatural threats!

      Wissenschaft Except that as members of the Sabbat, they look down upon humanity as being weak and foolish. They perceive vampirism as a gift, and glorify Caine for elevating them above such an existence.

      Sure, the majority of Sabbat were still on the Path of Humanity, but they were hardly concerned with maintaining a higher level of it.

      You don't just go from being a remorseless sociopath to behaving like a functioning individual just because the Camarilla tells you to do so. That's not how Humanity works, and if it was, then it makes the threat of succumbing to the Beast a total joke.


      The only way I could see this being pulled off is if the defectors of the clan were exclusively members of the younger generation. Those who hadn't been so thoroughly corrupted by Sabbat ideology. While the elders and ancients chose to stay with the sect. This would lead more credence to idea of why the Lasombra are sacrificing their elders in exchange for membership to the Camarilla.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
        And I'm sure that absolutely nobody in the entire SI has / will ever consider asking a theologian about how to combat supernatural threats!
        Um... so? The entire point why the Lasombra's infiltration of the church might be useful is that they'll know when the SI might come knocking and asking for advice - in which case they'll know which advice will be given, who's taking it and so on.

        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
        Sure, the majority of Sabbat were still on the Path of Humanity, but they were hardly concerned with maintaining a higher level of it.

        You don't just go from being a remorseless sociopath to behaving like a functioning individual just because the Camarilla tells you to do so. That's not how Humanity works, and if it was, then it makes the threat of succumbing to the Beast a total joke.
        Whereas Camarilla elders are usually paragons of Humanity? The Camarilla doesn't expect vampries to be humane, just to act like they are and not to fail where anyone can notice it. And I'd assume that most Lasombra are already relatively discreet in their monstrosity, compared to the average Sabbati.

        Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
        The only way I could see this being pulled off is if the defectors of the clan were exclusively members of the younger generation. Those who hadn't been so thoroughly corrupted by Sabbat ideology. While the elders and ancients chose to stay with the sect. This would lead more credence to idea of why the Lasombra are sacrificing their elders in exchange for membership to the Camarilla.
        The Lasombra who negotiated the deal was embraced 20 years ago and the "Prince" she negotiated it with is barely an Ancilla. If the Camarilla wasn't trembling, they'd probably be laughed at for thinking their pantomime had any actual relevance, but in these times, I think it's plausible that if you move quickly enough to create facts, others might well follow. And yes, the elder sacrifice (though the wording is somewhat unclear if it has to be Lasombra elders or any Sabbat elders) certainly makes sure many of the really old ones won't be coming over. I think it's been noted that it's mostly the "middle management" that will join the Camarilla - not too old and monstrous, but jaded enough to not be swept up in the Sabbat fanaticism.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
          The only way I could see this being pulled off is if the defectors of the clan were exclusively members of the younger generation. Those who hadn't been so thoroughly corrupted by Sabbat ideology. While the elders and ancients chose to stay with the sect. This would lead more credence to idea of why the Lasombra are sacrificing their elders in exchange for membership to the Camarilla.
          Well, partly. As I said, theres a loresheet that provides a way to break free from sabbat ideology. I imagine a Lasombra Elder would have about as much humanity as any other Cam Elder. Just enough to not appear as a monster ready to devour the nearest neonate. The Path of Humanity is less for the Elders and more for the Neonates. You sire young vampires that are closer to their humanity and use them to influence the Kine. Which is what most Cam elders already do. Also, putting in effort to mimic humanity, even if you don't have much yourself, is still helpful to maintain your own personal masquerade.

          The Lasombra write up suggests strongly that this defection to the Cam is top down. The elders of clan Lasombra are jumping ship to the Camarilla because the Cam is now a much more useful tool for the war against the Antideluvians than whats left of the Sabbat. Turns out the Friends of the Night place clan first over any sect and never really bought into Sabbat Dogma. They used the Sabbat much the same they use the Catholic Church. A means to an end. A good Lasombra uses beliefs to control people, they don't drink the kol-aid.

          That said, half the clan, especially the younger half are more likely to be die hard sabbat fantatics. Those are to be eliminated. Hence why Sabbat Cardinals that are Lasombra are being killed, they are most likely to be true believers. The interesting implication is that Lasombra in positions of power within the Sabbat are not the same as those invited into the Amici Noctis.

          Though an interesting question to ask is how old are the current Amici Noctis? If the truly eldest Lasombra were on paths but got beckoned, well that takes care of that issue.
          Last edited by Wissenschaft; 12-17-2018, 09:06 PM.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post
            And I'm sure that absolutely nobody in the entire SI has / will ever consider asking a theologian about how to combat supernatural threats!
            Did you just ignore the point where I said 'and they have had input and support from the Society of St. Leopold? They are being supported, but it's not a church-run Inquisition, and true faith users and church hunters are a much smaller part of the SI.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post

              Did you just ignore the point where I said 'and they have had input and support from the Society of St. Leopold? They are being supported, but it's not a church-run Inquisition, and true faith users and church hunters are a much smaller part of the SI.

              Didn't notice until after I posted my reply.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Darthpalpy View Post
                Some Amicii Noctii are going to feel this one... (As well as half the older, or less older lasombras, which we can assume are following a path).
                Mind you, I think the Path of Night is as far from the Road of Night as Christianity vs. the Church of Cthulhu.

                Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post


                My thoughts on this are that the Lasombra have tarnished their reputation in such a way that it will take centuries for them to recover, if that is even possible.

                Ever since the Sabbat was formed, the Lasombra have been fanatically hell bent on keeping their members away from defecting to the Camarilla, going so far as to lay siege to entire cities just to hunt down ONE traitor.

                They also fancy themselves as the leaders of the Sabbat, a sect which has devoted its entire existence to hunting down and destroying the Antedeluvians in an effort to circumvent Gehenna.

                And now, in 5th edition, when it is finally time for the Sabbat to take action and prove to the world that they were right to be prepared... what does the clan do?


                They pull up stakes, leave the sect and petition the Camarilla for membership, right when the Sabbat needs their guidance the most!

                I'm sorry, but this is what we refer to as a "bitch move!"


                The Lasombra talked a big game, but when they were finally asked to put up or shut up, they chose to shut up and fall in line with Camarilla law.

                The Lasombra aren't lords of the night, they're cowardly punks. And I no longer see any reason to respect them!


                EDIT: And as for them gloating about having power within the church, we'll just see how long that particular power base lasts.

                I was under the impression that the Inquisition was created specifically because vampires were trying to manipulate the church? If a second inquisition is on the move, then this can only spell disaster for the nights ahead!
                My argument there is...

                In what universe has anyone ever trusted the Lasombra?

                And what idiot would?

                The ones who say "bros before hos" are always the ones who throw you under the bus first.



                We all knew the only reason they were in the Sabbat was because they were in charge of it. When they were losing control and they saw a chance to take the Camarilla, you knew they were going to jumpship.

                Because...Lasombra gotta Lasombra.

                It's like asking Malks not to fish.

                Originally posted by Wissenschaft View Post
                @Nyrufa Well, half the Lasombra are staying in the Sabbat so I imagine they feel exactly as you do about the traitors.

                I will note though that the Lasombra haven't abandoned their war on the Antedeluvians. Now that the Camarilla recognizes the the threat of the ancients, the elder Lasombra have just made the cold hearted calculation that the Cam is a more useful tool than the current collapsing Sabbat in their war against the Antedeluvians. The threat of the Inquisition reinforces the need for stronger mortal influence in the clan and that is facilitated by the path of humanity. It also reinforces the need for a strong masquerade.
                Mind you, the Camarilla book indicates the Camarilla plan for the Antediluvians is throw the young under the bus and kiss their ancestors' ass.

                Which...did we expect different from the Camarilla?

                Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                Nyrufa
                Eh - the Lasombra have been fanatical about keeping their members away from defecting from the Clan. If the Clan as a whole decides that a new direction is warranted, well, that's a different thing. Also, our knowledge of the Sabbat interna is currently rather limited. We know they lost a lot. Perhaps up to the point that remaining with them might, in practice, not be so much "sticking with them and guiding them" as "going down with the ship" - in which case, screw that, the Antedeluvians aren't getting defeated by nobly dying! If the Sabbat isn't the best tool for fighting them, perhaps the Camarilla, now that their existence is proven pretty much beyond a doubt, is a more useful ally for achieving the very same goal.
                Mind you, this is a Civil War according to Chicago by Night when no sooner do they start to institute their "kill the Sabbat loyal elders to help defecting members get accepted" they find the ones they planned to kill start killing them to help THEIR DEFECTION.

                I mean, let's face it, the only thing less surprising than a Lasombra betraying his fellows is the Lasombra outsmarting themselves.

                Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                Um... so? The entire point why the Lasombra's infiltration of the church might be useful is that they'll know when the SI might come knocking and asking for advice - in which case they'll know which advice will be given, who's taking it and so on.

                Whereas Camarilla elders are usually paragons of Humanity? The Camarilla doesn't expect vampries to be humane, just to act like they are and not to fail where anyone can notice it. And I'd assume that most Lasombra are already relatively discreet in their monstrosity, compared to the average Sabbati.

                The Lasombra who negotiated the deal was embraced 20 years ago and the "Prince" she negotiated it with is barely an Ancilla. If the Camarilla wasn't trembling, they'd probably be laughed at for thinking their pantomime had any actual relevance, but in these times, I think it's plausible that if you move quickly enough to create facts, others might well follow. And yes, the elder sacrifice (though the wording is somewhat unclear if it has to be Lasombra elders or any Sabbat elders) certainly makes sure many of the really old ones won't be coming over. I think it's been noted that it's mostly the "middle management" that will join the Camarilla - not too old and monstrous, but jaded enough to not be swept up in the Sabbat fanaticism.
                I think the Lasombra and Camarilla came to a similar bit of shared evil here.

                1. The Lasombra would need to murder a ton of Lasombra and Sabbat elders to make sure they weren't pursued and exterminated like they used to do the Lasombra Antitribu

                2. The Camarilla wants to make sure this isn't a trick and making "fucking up the Sabbat leadership" a condition of their defect work.
                Last edited by CTPhipps; 12-17-2018, 11:10 PM.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  Mind you, the Camarilla book indicates the Camarilla plan for the Antediluvians is throw the young under the bus and kiss their ancestors' ass.

                  Which...did we expect different from the Camarilla?
                  Well, thats the same plan as some in the Sabbat. No different than what many Lasombra were already doing. Shurg, vampires are scum. lol

                  Oh you mean worshiping the Antediluvians, rather than just throwing the young into battle. Right, well theres ancestor worship but usually of Methuselahs that aren't planning on devouring their clan. That and the beckoning that has forced many elders likely into the waiting arms of the Antediluvians means that throwing your young at the ancients is not an option. They are taking the elders first.

                  While there are likely crazy Antediluvian death cults hidden in the Camerilla, I don't doubt the sect as a whole are opposed to the Antediluvians. The beckoning has pretty much demonstrated that throwing your childer under the bus is not going to be an option. That said, the elders that were beckon could be alive and being used as footsoldiers vs the sabbats crusade. You either kill the ancients or they are going to take the eldest first. So that doesn't leave many options.
                  Last edited by Wissenschaft; 12-18-2018, 12:04 AM.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post


                    Mind you, the Camarilla book indicates the Camarilla plan for the Antediluvians is throw the young under the bus and kiss their ancestors' ass.

                    Which...did we expect different from the Camarilla?

                    So, pretty much the exact course of action that resulted in the foundation of the Sabbat in the first place?

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                    • Originally posted by Nyrufa View Post

                      So, pretty much the exact course of action that resulted in the foundation of the Sabbat in the first place?
                      No, that was what they did for the Second Inquisition.

                      That resulted in the Anarchs going from a nuisance to an international sect.

                      Except with THREE Clans this time.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • I am conflicted about the Lasombra Exodus,in one hand I like big changes,they bring interesting new ways to play the game.
                        but,damn. The Lasombra were so at home in the Sabbat,the sect was where they fit,they had everything there.
                        CTPhipps ,I'd like to ask you. Are you assuming the Lasombra didn't actually believe wholeheartedly in the Sabbat philosophy? The beliefs of freedom for all kindred to be as monstrous as they wanted,of war against the ancestors and of meritocracy, cainites having plwer based on achievement, not age or lineage. not obeying elders just because they were elders, in the paths of enlightenment,did any Lasombra actually put their faith in what the Sabbat preached .or it was all just an avenue for personal power?

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                        • Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                          I am conflicted about the Lasombra Exodus,in one hand I like big changes,they bring interesting new ways to play the game.
                          but,damn. The Lasombra were so at home in the Sabbat,the sect was where they fit,they had everything there.
                          CTPhipps ,I'd like to ask you. Are you assuming the Lasombra didn't actually believe wholeheartedly in the Sabbat philosophy? The beliefs of freedom for all kindred to be as monstrous as they wanted,of war against the ancestors and of meritocracy, cainites having plwer based on achievement, not age or lineage. not obeying elders just because they were elders, in the paths of enlightenment,did any Lasombra actually put their faith in what the Sabbat preached .or it was all just an avenue for personal power?
                          My take on the Lasombra is that they've always been the individuals who have been the odd man out in the Sabbat's ideology and a large part of why the Sabbat are an actual sect versus a tsunami of angry Kindred. To give a simple explanation, the use of Catholic titles and priests in the Sabbat has always been meant to be IRONIC but the Lasombra have influenced things to the point that it's fairly accurate as they added the religious "Death Cult" angle to the sect.

                          The thing is, the Lasombra have (at least via retcon) been a clan that has always been more about the use of faith as a tool for power rather than faith itself. With rare exceptions like Moncada, their religion is less important than how it can be used to control others. It contrasts nicely with the Followers of Set/Ministry who are genuine believers as well as bugshit nuts as a result. The Lasombra "believe" in the Black Hand but they believe in it specifically because they are its leaders and they get everything they could want from it.

                          Or, until recently, did.

                          There's always been a tension in the Sabbat that the books have indicated exists but a lot of people ignore. Basically, a lot of the Sabbat Civil Wars have been fought specifically because the other members think the Lasombra are a bunch of controlling assholes no better than the Camarilla. Things like the Panders "Clan" exist in large part because the Lasombra's control over the sect has never been as secure as they thought it was. This despite the fact they make up almost a quarter of the sect.

                          It's easy for the Lasombra to be Sabbat when they are the holders of 70% of the titles from Archbishop (up with another 25% of that being the Tzimisce). The Antitribu have long been cannon fodder and tools for the Lasombra. They've prided themselves on destroying their Antediluvian and to be a Lasombra is basically being the nobility of Caine's Sword. It's easy to be good in your heaven so to speak. But at the end of the day, the higher you go in the Sabbat, the more like the Camarilla it starts to look.

                          The discovery that they're expected to dirty their hands in the battles in the Middle East, that they never actually defeated their Antediluvian at all, that their cultured manipulative existences are less important than War Parties by crazed 5th generation shovelheads possibly possessed by Enkidu or Gilgamesh ala Monty Coven, and that the Second Inquisition knows where they live but the rest of the Sabbat don't care because WARRGGHHHH.

                          Normally, this wouldn't be enough to make them turn wholesale on their own but the Camarilla is also at its weakest and is a wounded animal. Hardestadt is dead, the Anarchs are now a powerful dangerous force equal to the Sabbat in sides, 2 Council seats are open, their old friends in the Assamites are part of the Council, and the Tremere are laid low. Throw in Milan's Prince and Marcus Vitel are present then you have a group which might be accepting of ambitious Lasombra. Were I writing it, I'd also have Lucita be a major force in it as they offered her the Regency but she's a former Camarilla Archon who is NOT suited for a Path of Enlightenment (Bruce Baugh novels aside).

                          It makes one question one's place. I don't think the Lasombra would see themselves as traitors, though, because the Lasombra are incapable of that level of self-reflection. They'd explain to you over a course of ten minutes just why the REST of the Sabbat were traitors and you'd end up believing it--and the scary thing is that the Toreador are about the only people who could also pull that off and they'd need Presence.

                          In short, it's the French Revolution and they're King Louis looking at the Hapsburgs for taking back their territory.

                          Treason?

                          Perhaps but how can you be a traitor when you're the King?

                          It is the Sabbat who have failed THEM.
                          Last edited by CTPhipps; 12-18-2018, 04:52 PM.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            There's always been a tension in the Sabbat that the books have indicated exists but a lot of people ignore. Basically, a lot of the Sabbat Civil Wars have been fought specifically because the other members think the Lasombra are a bunch of controlling assholes no better than the Camarilla. Things like the Panders "Clan" exist in large part because the Lasombra's control over the sect has never been as secure as they thought it was. This despite the fact they make up almost a quarter of the sect.

                            It's easy for the Lasombra to be Sabbat when they are the holders of 70% of the titles from Archbishop (up with another 25% of that being the Tzimisce). The Antitribu have long been cannon fodder and tools for the Lasombra. They've prided themselves on destroying their Antediluvian and to be a Lasombra is basically being the nobility of Caine's Sword. It's easy to be good in your heaven so to speak. But at the end of the day, the higher you go in the Sabbat, the more like the Camarilla it starts to look.
                            Where are these numbers from? To me, it usually seemed as if the Tzimisce and Lasombra were a minority in the sect. A large minority with disproportionate amounts of power, but a minority nonetheless.

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                            • Originally posted by Cifer View Post
                              Where are these numbers from? To me, it usually seemed as if the Tzimisce and Lasombra were a minority in the sect. A large minority with disproportionate amounts of power, but a minority nonetheless.
                              Those numbers do make them a minority.

                              ?

                              Oh, FYI, the numbers were talked about here: http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/m...-of-the-sabbat


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                It's like asking Malks not to fish.
                                [sighs in revised clanbook]

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