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That Worm in Vienna

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  • That Worm in Vienna

    Walk without rhythm and you won't attract the worm.
    The giant "worm" in the Vienna chantry is what became of the original body of Tremere, after the diablerie of Saulot. Once Tremere had taken the soul of Saulot, the two struggled for the body of Tremere. Eventually Tremere lost and either fled, or was cast out, and ended up in the body of Goratrix. This much is generally accepted.
    However, when Tremere's soul left is up for debate. According most versions of the timeline this did not happen until the 1990s. However, according to V20, it happened centuries ago.
    In the later case, who or what is still struggling for control of Tremere's body after Saulot "won" the struggle?
    The most likely candidate is the Tzimisce Founder. It witnessed the diablerie of Saulot, but knew what was happening. Ceoris was located in Transylvania, close to the Tzimisce Founder and its demonic ally/patron Kupala. The Tremere as vampires are a Tzimisce bloodline in any case, tainted with Vicissitude.
    This might help to explain the Tremere pogrom of the Saulbri - it was as much the doing of the Tzimisce founder as the Tremere themselves. Remember that one of Saulot's childre, Samiel, destroyed the Tzimisce F's original form during the Baali Wars. The Tzimisce Founder probably wanted revenge.
    This could account for why the giant worm remained a giant worm - by locking the body into that form the Tzimisce founder was fucking with whomever ended up with the body, be it Saulot or Tremere.
    The next question, then, is what happened to it when the Vienna chantry was destroyed?

  • #2
    I don't think it was ever Saulot.

    Saulot's soul went on to Heaven or whatever awaits vampires who achieve Golconda.

    I think it's Tzimisce or Kupala.

    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.


    • #3
      According to V20, and events in V5 are not necessarily going to line up. It may have still been struggling and was destroyed.
      Maybe it was a Tremere inside job to take care of the Salubri Anti-D


      • #4
        Samiel smote the Eldest Millenia after the Baali Wars.

        And I’m partial to the idea Saulot left his Beast in Tremeres Body to evolve into a mighty white wyrm, with is hun traveling abroad.

        It is a time for great deeds!


        • #5
          So plenty of things here.

          1. The Samiel thing
          So apparently there are some weird chronological stuffs about Samiel. According to the lore, he died twice, once during the Baali Wars then another time facing Tzimisce. Now, we can find several ways to make this fit :

          1) Samiel died during the Baali War. Saulot was sad so he embraced another guy who took the name Samiel to replace him.
          2) Samiel did not die during the Baali War, but for some reason was believed dead and did not return to the Second City.
          3) Samiel was diablerized during the Baali War and took control of the one who killed him, then died against Tzimisce.

          2. Tremere left his body long ago
          OK but then: who took Goratrix body in the Transylvania Chronicles ?

          3. Saulot, Tzimisce, and using Vicissitude on Tremere's body
          I do not believe the bouts of Vicissitude experienced by Tremere are actually a proof that Tzimisce is into this, because honestly, no one will convince me Saulot does not know enough Vicissitude to be unable to do this. I like the idea it's just Saulot because Tremere would never have been able to survive with two Ante fighting against him. Still I like the idea that the pogrom may have be a Tzimisce thing.

          However, my belief is that many low generation salubri walked straight into the Tremere is that either Tremere or Saulot called them with Presence.


          • #6
            I've been thinking about this one as well - Plus - love the opening song quote! I got that reference!

            I work with the Theory that Saulot and Tremere fought for dominance for centuries - the resulting stress and the presence of Tzimisce blood was responsible for the White Worm. This remained until roughly before Transylvania Chronicles IV where Tremere and Etrius launched a plan to Destroy Goratrix and the Antitribu as well as take control of Goratrix's body. This leaves Saulot as Tremere and Tremere as Goratrix. As this is pretty well documented, it's fair to see this as canon, even if there are a few competing theories.

            In the gap between that timeline and now (V5) a number of things have happened - Tremere/Goratrix has reformed House Goratrix under his banner and Saulot/Tremere has taken control of the Tremere Clan proper and Specifically Vienna. Of course we have House Carna too.

            I've seen a lot of contention about the destruction of Vienna by the SI, and how they shouldn't have been able to do that. Now, ignoring whether they could or not, what if it wasn't entirely the SI - they were just the public face and took the Credit? My working theory is that Tremere/Goratrix knew that his former clan needed to fall, and Saulot/Tremere needed to fall with them, or at the very least lose the substantial power base he had whilst he controlled them, Tremere tipped off the SI (Not directly of course, "Hi it's Tremere here - have you investigated this building - loads of Blankbodies there!!") and also weaved some magic of his own to weaken/remove the defenses - as he'd have crafted a number of them himself he'd know how to get around them. Maybe he also involved some other, interested 3rd parties (Hello Banu Haqim! - what are you up to on Thursday?) all to destroy his former clan and weaken Saulot.

            Now, whether the Chantry Prime and all it's denizens were truly destroyed or are playing a secret war (answers on a postcard and you could win a no-prize!) remains to be seen, what is now the case is that they are severley weakened and their are 3 factions of Clan Tremere - each with a different head.

            House Carna is the wildcard here and i'm interested to see which side they fall on - if any!


            • #7
              Eh, Golconda is such an important part of vampire, you can't really screw it up by making Saulot evil.

              My .02 at least.

              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.


              • #8
                I would not call Saulot "evil." And I would not say that Golconda was "good." Golconda seems to be supreme self control, and mastery of the beast. It might be a state, or condition, for vampires permitting goodness and redemption, but I do not think Golconda is the same thing as redemption or goodness. As for Saulot, he probably performed vile acts before attaining Golconda. But the purpose of my post was to discuss questions. Tremere was never in sole control of his body or clan after the destruction of Saulot. And the structure of the Tremere clan, its general behavior, and the pogrom specifically do not match what is known about Saulot. So, who was in control? What was going on? Why is the body of Tremere still stuck in the form of a vast and evil Vienna Sausage? Etc....


                • #9
                  Mind you, I actually incorporated the "Saulot is the father of the Baali" into my games.

                  Saulot slaughtered the Infernalist village and then in a fit of anger, "punished" the three survivors by Embracing them and throwing them down a well.

                  He didn't quite put 2+2 together to realize that giving 3 monstrously evil people the power of 4th generation vampires was not going to result in them learning any form of lesson.

                  So, he created the Warrior Salubri to atone.

                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.


                  • #10
                    i've always worked on the proviso that Tremere wanted the Salubri dead to sell the story his clan was useful and to convince people they weren't just "usurpers". At first the Diablerie worked, and Tremere was in control of himself and his actions, however after a while, things changed.

                    I also think that Saulot was happy to sacrifice his old clan. Partially to sell his death and the myth of Saulot the Good, but also to empower the Tremere clan - his new Brood.

                    Now, whether Saulot is Good, Bad, crazy - i'm not sure. i think at times he has been all of them and has been subject to substantial mood swings. Ultimately, he's a master of the Jyhad and is playing it to win - whether this is because he's evil and wants to enslave the world, or whether this is because he's good and wants to save the world from the rest of the Truly Evil vampires remains to be seen. i frankly love the mystery and dichotomy of Saulot. From founder of the Ba'ali to Saviour of the world!


                    • #11

                      What makes me curious is: what happened to the white worm after SI's attack on Vienna?
                      Has it been destroyed? Or was it taken by the SI to be studied?


                      • #12
                        The more interesting development is to have it taken off by SI to be studied, or disposed of later... and they lost track of it. There is a lot of finger pointing going on, but the short of it is no one - not the SI or the remaining Tremere leadership - know were it is located, or what it is doing.


                        • #13
                          Well it’s a song and book quote actually so double cool references.

                          Yes I remember the two deaths of Samiel, and I found the Tzimisce one cooler because he won a fight with an Ante channeling his righteousness and fury!

                          But I really like the idea he was diablerized, Baali anyone?, and used his mastery of the soul through the Dragon’s Tear wisdom to win back his body. Love it!

                          Oh man okay I generally ignore the idea that Saulot won the body centuries ago but a cool thing you could do is he did win centuries ago but maybe it was Zaolots hun who went and took Goreatrixs body and put him in a mirror! I know I dig the idea his Po is the White Wyrm.

                          After all who was the Saulot who went to the Lair of the Hidden and scared Nickanuranaru?

                          And what do you think has happened to Sclav if it’s been 15+ years?

                          Zaolat was to teach Sclav as the entity was becoming more then a beast and a monster and a slave.

                          It is a time for great deeds!


                          • #14
                            Not really sure why there are this doubts. Tsang is quite clear in giving the picture of the situation.

                            Tsang: Thank you.

                            Beckett: I apologize for Talley needing to incapacitate you.

                            Tsang: Knowledge is power, Gangrel. What power do you have over me?

                            Beckett: You’ll find yourself feeling weak. Talley drank from you. At this time, power is entirely in my hands.

                            Tsang: I am Tsang Kwong, once the One Who Knows. I watch and Master Zao-Lat sees all.

                            Beckett: Saulot is dead.

                            Tsang: Zao-Lat lives. Your white worm is merely a chrysalis. He
                            is reborn, through blood of Tzimisce and Tremere both. His Hun in
                            the body of a mortal youth, his P’o within the worm. It is as he

                            Beckett: Tremere has been ousted from his own body —

                            Tsang: — and occupies that of his favored childe: Goratrix. The two have a sympathetic bond. As mortals they were lovers.

                            Beckett: I need to know the plans of Saulot and Tremere.

                            Tsang: They circle and align and await the appropriate time. Tremere as Goratrix will restart his grand agenda with those loyal
                            to him. He sponsors House Carna, for reasons even I do not know. Tremere, in hubris, believes he has the time to do this. You ask
                            how Carna broke from the Tremere. The answer is in the Book, but my belief is that she did not break free. Her followers are the
                            ones who remain loyal. The rest of the Clan will suffer. House Carna will be dismissed as fringe, but are empowered in a way they
                            do not realize. Zao-Lat has been planning his move for centuries. He has what no other Antediluvian does. Access to the power of three great avatars.
                            He can consume all, or turn all against his enemies. Zao-Lat is readying for birth. When born, he can drench our world in blood,
                            turn Clan on Clan, and awaken the one they call Caine.

                            Beckett: Caine?

                            Tsang: Another new question. First, your Master of Ravens is a fanatical servant of Zao-Lat. I cannot pierce his true identity,
                            or even if he is vampire. His power is provided by Zao-Lat. Mahtiel is conflicted. Of my brethren, but not. She is the blade
                            where I am the eagle. She is the slashing sword where I am the sighting eye. Her existence, and that of her peers, is intrinsically
                            linked to the power of Zao-Lat and the promise of Golconda. It is a hollow promise. I have seen too much to believe otherwise.
                            Yet she cannot accept Zao-Lat’s betrayal of his childer. Oh, but his childer are many. There are more Clans than you know who could
                            sport a third eye, Gangre

                            Besides what Saulot has done is quite clear if you read Lair of the Hidden. Among the High Thauma rituals there is this.

                            PLATONIC SPLIT (LEVEL SEVEN RITUAL)

                            According to one of Plato's fables, humans originally were both male and female. For their insolence, Zeus split humanity into male and female halves. Every soul longs to rejoin its missing half - a literal "soul mate." Vampires also have two spirits in one body, the Man and the Beast. This ritual temporarily divides them and gives them each a body. That half that receives the Man looks as the person did before the Embrace, though the person remains a vampire. The half that receives the Beast is a ravening, vampiric monster more horrible than any nosferatu. The Beast is physically stronger, but the Man possess all the intellectual and social abilities. The Beast hates the Man and lusts to destroy it. If the Beast can be physically restrained, however, the Man can act without the burden of its presence...for a time.
                            This ritual was once highly regarded. Some ancient Thaumaturges believed they could develop a means to exorcise the Beast permanently. Such hopes were never realized. Splitting off the Beast also carries certain problems that make its loss a dubious blessing. While a fre thaumaturges may seek temporary surcease from the Beaast, or offer it to other Cainites, the spell can also be used as an attack - suddenly creating an enemy of your enemy that has all his powers.
                            And this is a level 7 ritual.
                            Who knows what could be done if you had access to Thauma 10. Not that Saulot has a body or someone that could cast such a potent ritual...right?
                            Last edited by Undead rabbit; 11-29-2018, 07:35 PM.


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post
                              So plenty of things here.
                              3. Saulot, Tzimisce, and using Vicissitude on Tremere's body
                              I do not believe the bouts of Vicissitude experienced by Tremere are actually a proof that Tzimisce is into this, because honestly, no one will convince me Saulot does not know enough Vicissitude to be unable to do this. I like the idea it's just Saulot because Tremere would never have been able to survive with two Ante fighting against him. Still I like the idea that the pogrom may have be a Tzimisce thing.
                              I think that the Viscisitude alterations to Tremere were meant to be in line with the early version of the Soul-Eater version of Viscisitude , not the Tzimesce Eldest specifically (unless the eldest was the reason for the soul-eater plot) Since Tremere and the original Magi were embraced using Tzimesce Blood.