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What if the 2nd Generation has more Potential then Caine?

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  • What if the 2nd Generation has more Potential then Caine?

    So I like some of the ideas presented in the guide to The Talmaherah. Like the idea Lilith and Caine worked together on making the 2nd gen and there were actually maybe 13 second gen, with most being killed, and each mastering a discipline from beyond.

    So I’m positing what if the 2nd gen had more potential then Caine? I liked the Caine and Lilith theory because it means Caine can’t embrace more childer because he needs Lilith for help. It also makes things interesting.

    What we know Caine displayed powerful but limited disciplines. He seemed to have potent physical disciplines as he developed them as a wanderer and Lilith cultivated their perfection when he spent an Eon in her Garden surviving her tutelage. He seemed to also develop, Auspex (he had prophetic dreams, enhanced senses, and could see afar), protean ( he at least seemed to have the basics of shapeshifting down when he wandered alone, dominate (he could order around those of lesser blood and command mortals) and some Blood Sorcery (he could use his blood painted on a tower to natural depict the calender, and he could curse his get but perhaps that was in part due to his Dominate.

    But he couldn’t sway their hearts till he learned Blood bonding from the Crone, so one thinking he wasn’t as good with presence. And he may have mastered Obfuscate since when he wanted to hide he could not just hide from his Childer but also from Lilith.

    Analects of the Third Garden gets a bit into this, also showing he had no mastery of Shadows as that was something Zillah developed.

    And most of Caine as a supergod comes from fans and a blurb in Gehenna and the note section in the book of Nod saying his disciplines aren’t like those today but more freeform, which seemed more to indicate Blood Sorcery to me.

    Perhaps the withering and discipline changes in 5 ed is making the Cainites more like the 2nd gen, in that their disciplines are more flexible and connected like Caine’s. Maybe the withering results when populations reach Critical Mass. maybe part of why Caine forbid embraces is because the more you spread the curse of Caine the more power is leeched from Caine, or maybe in this case from Caine’s 2nd generation?

    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Well, Caine went through an awakening much like mages. Which is why he had the ability to create disciplines.

    As for the more specialized disciplines, they came about from the antes using their inherent knowledges.

    Lasombra was obsessed with the Abyss, a realm of darkness, so he was able to create a discipline that manipulates shadows.

    Ravnos was a trickster, so using illusions amplified to a reality breaking measure made sense.

    Cappadocious was obsessed with death and the spirit realm, which led to necromancy (he actually had this started pre-embrace as he communed with spirits before reaching the First City).

    Malkav was insane.

    Tzimisce was fearful of stagnation that he witnessed, so he went to an extreme with Protean on himself and somewhere along the way found Viscissitude.

    The primary reason Caine forbade embracing during the First City era was fear of their food source being wiped out, as diablerie wasn't thought of until after the flood.


    • #3
      I always liked the first edition Exalted explanation of it being a prequel setting to WoD.

      Theoretically that would make Adam some sort of Abyssal, with his offspring Cain & Abel having the potential for becoming abyssal half-castes. All descendants would theoretically also share this heritage potential, which is only triggered by the sharing of already awakened blood.

      While that wouldn't make Cain weaker than say a second generation vampire per se, it would make him caught between system mechanics which tends to leave characters with interesting restrictions or complications to their powers.

      Either that or Caine fell into the Udr and found himself driving a cab in LA.


      • #4
        I Absolutely agree with 2nd/3rd having the more broad powers than Caine; anything outside the core discipline spread (Auspex, Animalism, Celerity, Dominate, Fortitude Obfuscate, Potence and Presence. Plus Protean and Blood Sorcery- not necessarily Path of Blood) If he didn't show it earlier, but developed it; that's because it just didn't come as naturally to what he was doing in order to manifest until later.
        He could learn to use his brute power in one of the "refined" disciplines

        My Thoughts - all sorcery (Inc Necromancy, Thanatosis) is a refinement of the original Sorcery he displayed, refined as the dormant potency of Vitae. Quietus probably evolves from this as well (V5 certainly wants that to be the case. Spiritus
        Protean evolves in to Serpentis with the Setites (Which would mean that the Tlacique Bloodline is the "More Pure" version, or a Throwback.) As with Abombwe for the Laibon
        Dementation from the Messed up minds of Malkavians with Dominate and Presence. Possibly Malkav tapped in to Arcadia early on.
        Melpominee enhances Presence, maybe with Dementation influence.
        Temporis - Did this exist before Celerity, or was it what came before, and Troile only taught a version of speed that was limited?

        Disciplines that have a part source from non Vampires.
        Obeah/Valeran comes from the Kuei-Jin when Saulot went their and sought out enlightenment
        Visceratika and Flight come from the Messed up rituals in creating the Gargoyles. Just like Sanguinus from a messed up Ritual
        Chimerstry& Mytherceria, Daimonion, Obtenebration come from messing with other supernaturals/realms - Fae/Arcadia, Demons, the Abyss
        Bardo from messed up Semi-Mummy, Semi-Mage powers.

        Viscisitude - Well, lots of discussion on where it came from, I think it's not naturally an evolution of Caine's Blood.


        • #5
          Technically Caine is relatively weak now according to gehena suplement becuase almost any third gen can kill him in the liith chapter.

          Caine wasnt insta killed in gehena just becuase of the sevenfold curse (All damage done to him is returned seven times to the one who caused this by GOD).

          I am the only one who prefers caine as an ashole with luck eventually outclassed by his own progeny and sins instead of an almost invencible blood primordial?
          Last edited by Leandro16; 11-30-2018, 03:52 AM.

          Hunger pool


          • #6
            I think Caine is more likeable and even useful as a flawed human being with some hefty supernatural bulk, but over all a lot of his lineage are more competent then him. I always see Caine as a stubborn jerk who doesn’t want to say sorry so he damns the world in his bullishness. I like the idea Caine isn’t a Genius and most of his powers are simple.

            Don’t think he’s lucky though, seems mighty depressed.

            It is a time for great deeds!


            • #7
              I'd like to think that the 2nd and 3rd Generations each could have defeated Caine if they'd really wanted, but instead just fought amongst themselves. It would make sense that his get would refine his natural talents into the Disciplines we know today, while he would be slower to do so. However, I personally like the idea of Caine the Evershifting: that while he probably didn't develop overly many Disciplines himself due to being less creative than some, he has a natural knack for learning them if he gets the chance, and if he's interested. Like, he could probably teach himself total mastery of Serpentis or Dementation with relative ease, but just doesn't find them worth looking too hard at.

              I really like the narrative of a blood god who actually could have fallen, save for the fact that none of the people that could pull it off were willing to work together, which kinda makes his disgust with his progeny rather valid. A Caine that's dabbled with everything his childer made and found none of it good, and left them to their pet projects after disavowing the lot. It takes him from "wrathful god" to "disenchanted patriarch".


              • #8
                It took 13 3rd generations and an unknown amount of 4th gens (Absimiliard started making Niktuku to assist in killing Zillah) to drop 3 2nd gens. The difference is experience, the 2nd gens had more and Caine even more.

                The thing with VtM is that the lower generations can be killed by higher gens if the right circumstances fall into place. But it has to be done quickly or there will be hell to pay.

                Unfortunately Caine gets a pass on the whole "being eaten" thing due to the Mark. The people knew who he was even before he started embracing. They knew the mark of God's displeasure and the repercussions of messing with Caine. That kept him safe. What kept him in power was the fact that he had eons to develop disciplines outside of the known ones.


                • #9
                  Not to mention that he also had the power to cancel out the disciplines in his childer.....


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gangrel44 View Post
                    Not to mention that he also had the power to cancel out the disciplines in his childer.....
                    In which book(s) is this written ?


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                      In which book(s) is this written ?
                      The Book of Nod pg. 119


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gangrel44 View Post

                        The Book of Nod pg. 119
                        Thank you.

                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        I think Caine is more likeable and even useful as a flawed human being with some hefty supernatural bulk, but over all a lot of his lineage are more competent then him. (...)
                        I agree with this as a possibility. Low Generation does not guarantee excellence or superiority in regard to everything, compared to Vampires of higher Generations. Though there is also a certain amount of greatness and potential inherent in Vampirism that have to be taken into account when considering Caine's capabilities, in the end I think that it is possible that some members of the 2nd or 3rd Generations are, more or less, as capable as Caine or more capable than him ; due to their distinct traits and efforts.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Gangrel44 View Post
                          Not to mention that he also had the power to cancel out the disciplines in his childer.....
                          I’d take that with a grain of Salt. Like I would have it he has an easier time dominating other, and can curse them, but I don’t know if I want to say he can turn off Zapathsura’s illusions on a whim or dampen even Montanos shadow control.

                          It is a time for great deeds!