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The Antes and their knowledge of the Tellurian?

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  • The Antes and their knowledge of the Tellurian?

    So just curious people like to say the Antes are super smart and Knowledgeable but only a few we know have spirit knowledge. We know Sutekh was a night sorcerer and warrior, he has traveled enough of the Underworld to have diablerized Apep, and seemed to have vanished there. But his Sorcery was so strong he could curse two Tribes, the Silent Striders and Bubasti with curses comparable if not greater then Caine’s, as well as recreate a corrupted spell of life to make Bane Mummies, and his children developed/pioneered at least five forms of blood Sorcery.

    The Eldest seems to have learned a lot from Kupala about the spirits of the world, and he was said to be a shaman and oracle in life. Cappadocius studied the Underworld. Zaolat learned from the grand Arhat 血 and learned enough about the Yin and Yang and Yomi to learn he could be Demon emperor. Ilyes was said to be an Amazing Sage and Analects of the 3rd Garden, yes a fan work but better then most canon supplements, posits he may have pioneered the 3rd eye and Necromancy before Zaolat and cappadocius or may be them. And Lasombra learned much of the Abyss. And Veddartha collected relics of power potent even to be likes of Caine, and was a sorcerer of some repute.

    But Absimiliard seemed to know less of magic then the Baba Yaga. And Haquim was wise and a sage but he created the first gen of the Viziers and Sorcerers to help understand the world and some seemed to be his equal if not superior in arcane wisdom, especially Ur-Shulgi who took quickly to the ways of Godhood. And Zapathsura was said to explore the courts of the Fae, and probably the Mirrorland and Yomi.

    Most of the pioneers we know seem to come from methuselahs. Like that Blackhand story about that Tzimisce plumbing the depths of the Underworld and discovering the Gravewells in the catacombs of the world that may be the resting place of the 2nd ed or Angels and seem to be the origins of disciplines.

    So do you think most Antes in their youth Explored? We keep hearing the Umbra and the Underworld was dangerous even to them, and even Caine warned of traveling there. Thoughts?


    It is a time for great deeds!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
    So just curious people like to say the Antes are super smart and Knowledgeable but only a few we know have spirit knowledge. We know Sutekh was a night sorcerer and warrior, he has traveled enough of the Underworld to have diablerized Apep, and seemed to have vanished there. But his Sorcery was so strong he could curse two Tribes, the Silent Striders and Bubasti with curses comparable if not greater then Caine’s, as well as recreate a corrupted spell of life to make Bane Mummies, and his children developed/pioneered at least five forms of blood Sorcery.
    (...)
    And Veddartha collected relics of power potent even to be likes of Caine, and was a sorcerer of some repute.
    In which V:tM ( or WoD ) books can I read more about Set and Ventru, other than the Clanbooks ?

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    • #3
      They are both scattered about. Veddartha is scattered mostly in vampire books, and meta plot books like Lair of the Hidden they have a relic tablet of his that could give even mortals godlike fortitude.

      Set is scattered across all the gamelines. The Bubasti have a doom curse where if all the tribe leave Egypt that will be the last generation of them. The Striders had their Ancestors Banished to unknown realms, and their Tribal Homeland wasted and cast far adrift (tribal homelands are a godrealm ruled by Totem Incarna so this is no mere feat. And the striders were cursed to be haunted if they dwell in their homeland of Egypt and can find no true rest in if they ever stop and lay down roots. Part of why Set did this was the Striders Slew his wife and cast a ritual to destroy her soul, but maybe she got reborn as a wyrmish Demon. It also seems Set, and his wife/Childe Nephthy were Silent Strider Kin. All the supernatural beings of that region formed the Osirian League to stop Set. And he has been beaten by his Nephew Horus and by A Silebt Strider Hero blesses By Isis herself.


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #4
        In Absimiliard's defense he was a hunter in life and obsessed with killing Zilla for scarring him during the embrace. Magic wasn't high on his list of priorities. Meanwhile, Baba Yaga was a shaman for some time before she was embraced. Hell, thaumaturgy is the only discipline she had at 9.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kael03 View Post
          In Absimiliard's defense he was a hunter in life and obsessed with killing Zilla for scarring him during the embrace. Magic wasn't high on his list of priorities. Meanwhile, Baba Yaga was a shaman for some time before she was embraced. Hell, thaumaturgy is the only discipline she had at 9.
          Damn web ate my first response.

          But at least we know from Baba Yaga her Sorcery seems like the greatest we have seen in Action. She may have been the greatest sorcerer shown, the equal if not the superior of Ur-Shulgi. She seems to have as many feats as Ur-Shulgi combined with his descendants. In fact the only thing they have done they would give Baba Yaga Pause was create the Well of Blood and that required the whole bloodline ( not just the roughly two thirds of the modern bloodline that hail from him) and the blessing of Haquim himself.

          And Baba Yaga even learned to tame Mages which took the Black Hand to learn elsewhere.


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #6
            Thinking of Antediluvian knowledge, I'd say that The Eldest, Cappadocius, Set and Saulot would be the big 4, with [Lasombra] and Malkav close behind, and Zapathsura at the tail end of the knowledgeable ones.

            The Eldest was notably oracular and a seer even before his Embrace, and it wouldn't surprise me if he'd been an Awakened Mage as a mortal, or at least had some Numinae. His introspective approach, as well as his alleged ability to use Vicissitude to surface in any of his line and his bargaining with Kupala all point towards a highly developed mind, a strong bend towards experimentation, and quite a few resources at his disposal.

            Cappadocius was the ultimate death nerd. A consummate scholar as well as explorer beyond the Shroud, his theories on apotheosis, as well as mastery of a rich blood magic discipline, paint him as an extremely talented theologian and mystical theorist. Keep in mind, of the main lines of the 13 original Clans, his is the only one to carry blood magic as an in-clan Discipline.

            Set was skilled enough to supposedly best a great many creatures, and subvert all kinds of diverse supernatural norms. He bastardized the Spell of Life, created the only known Mokole Abomination, and plunged into the darkness to devour Apep. While his depth might not be established fully, the noticable breadth of his knowledge is impressive.

            Saulot was able to transcend his original self through the sort of mystical discipline and rigor even other immortals aspire to reach. Being able to adopt elements of the alien supernatural environment of the far East into something heritable is no small feat, and his ages of rumination couldn't hurt either.

            [Lasombra] might not have been the most impressive scholar by any record, but the development of Abyss Mysticism clearly marks a learned explorer, especially when one of the powers is specifically about finding answers.

            Malkav was the mad seer. While perhaps not as coherent or astute as the others, if his Clan takes after him at all, it means there are some secrets he might have unraveled that even the other scholarly Antediluvians couldn't have guessed at.

            Zapathsura comes in at an honorable mention just because the fae-Chimestry connection is at the very least strong enough to argue for contact with the wider supernatural world. However, this is like comparing the average ancient Athenian to the average ancient Eritrean: one might be more knowledge than the other, but neither are a Socrates/Plato/Aristotle figure.

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            • #7
              Zapathasura had the ability to warp reality to a certain extent. The descriptions of the area where the battle took place show a lot of twisting that can't really be explained by anything else, plus the higher levels of Chimerstry. I don't know if anything later tried to establish that he actually did have a faerie connection but the clanbook seemed to ignore it or shoot it down.

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              • #8
                Later 20th ed supplements mention it, like C20 and prerevised mention it, but I think yeah Revised does ignore it mostly Cause Changeling didn’t get a Revised ed.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #9
                  I think it was more because the connection was not a very good idea, tbh. Ravnos Rev also makes a point to say so, or rather an in-character dismissal of the idea.

                  Stuff wasn't ignored due to the lack of a revised edition. VRev acknowledged Werewolf, Mage, and Wraith at least and two of those hadn't had revised editions yet while the third never got one.
                  Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 11-30-2018, 01:30 PM.

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                  • #10
                    It does seem to me like Arikel is getting underappraciated, compared to those 3rd Generation Founders who are known for being involved in regard to occult knowledge and mysticism. Even though she doesn't have an area of knowledge she is associated with, she could still considerable and varied knowledge of the occult and the mystical, and skill in regard to it ; perhaps it would be particularly varied because she didn't narrow down her interest and efforts.
                    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-01-2018, 11:11 AM.

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                    • #11
                      I figured Arikel may have knowledge via an age spent Astral Torporing the universe and mind reading.


                      It is a time for great deeds!

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                      • #12
                        I wouldn't be surprised if Arikel has some knowledge of Platonic Ideals, and whatever realm those exist in. It is the logical extension of being obsessed with perfect beauty.

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                        • #13
                          In Arikel/Ishtar's deffense, (and a bit Ennoia's) the Gangrel Ante possessed the Tablet of Destiny* until Ishtar tried to take the item from her. Outraged by this action, Ennoia set out to kill the Toreador Antediluvian...

                          [Tablet of Destiny (Toreador Rev p. 15-16):
                          According to the Enûma Elish, the Tablet of Destiny were the laws for mankind, set down by Enoch himself. What those clay tablets actually contained is a matter of much speculation. After his embrace, Hesiod believed them to contain an early account of the Book of Nod.
                          Monçada and Beckett thought it was a chronicle of blood powers, explaining all of Enoch's magics (which, according to legend, included the capability to break blood oaths at will, and remove the Potence from ghouls).
                          But these are mere legends, all as likely to be true as the Malkavian Anatole's tale that Enoch's tablet contained the detailed future of every cainite who had been or would be, from Caine's punishment through the Time of Thin Blood.
                          In any event, it is said that Ishtar tried to take this item from Ennoia, which led to a bitter feud between the two Antediluvians, nearly causing the Toreador destruction twice.]

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                          • #14
                            Interesting the Tablets...

                            So do people think all the Antes had a period of wandering early on were they discovered the mysteries of the world one way or another.


                            It is a time for great deeds!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              So do people think all the Antes had a period of wandering early on were they discovered the mysteries of the world one way or another.
                              I think that most of the 3rd Generation Founders wouldn't stop searching for knowledge and trying to discover mysteries. ( Unless it is assumed that they spend a lot of time uninvolved in matters beyond securing their immediate needs. ) They can do this either personally, or influence, ask, or manipulate other Vampires ( and maybe persons other than Vampires ) to do it for them.
                              Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                              I figured Arikel may have knowledge via an age spent Astral Torporing the universe and mind reading.
                              I'm thinking that Arikel is so skilled in conversing and empathy that, most of the time, she doesn't need to use Disciplines to acquire knowledge and information from other persons.

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