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V5 Question about Thinblood Alchemy

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  • V5 Question about Thinblood Alchemy

    Hello all,

    I was wondering if someone could help me out in understanding thinblood alchemy a bit more. Mostly in regards to who can use it. I have poured over the book attempting to find a solid answer one way or another but cannot seem to locate it, if it is there. In short here are my two questions:

    1) Can full fledged vampires (Blood potency 1 or more) pick up and use Thinblood alchemy as an out of clan discipline?

    2) Can others take part in the creations of thinblood alchemy (i.e. could a thinblood give a concoction to another vampire/thinblood and they would gain the benefits of it).

    Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

  • #2
    Currently It seems you can only get it through the thin-blood merit Thin-blood Alchemist (pg. 184). You start with one dot and one formula and can learn more through experience (pg. 151). Thin-Blood Alchemy is a discipline as it is listed in the Discipline section or at least that is what my troupe is thinking and we trait it as their only in clan discipline but they do have to have the advantage to start learning it.

    If you wish to have some one outside of the Thin-bloods learn it I would say you just need to allow them to buy the merit and treat it as out of clan. As far as someone besides the Thin-blood being able to take part in the creations it depends, many of the systems say whether or not they can be used by others or not, but the alchemist himself must activate it.

    For example:

    Defractionate requires the alchemist to cleanse the blood and then it can be drank by others.
    Awaken the sleeper allows the alchemist to create an elixir to awaken another vampire.
    Airborne Momentum only allows the Alchemist to fly.
    Power duplicating formula allow the alchemist to duplicate the power but I would not say it allows them to give it to others unless their is no activation roll required. Only the Alchemist would know how to activate his creation.

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    • #3
      Can you only get it via the merit? Does that mean you can only learn this at character creation and never after?

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      • #4
        Thin Blood Alchemy is a Thin Blood merit - you can only take it as a Thin blood. i can't find the line, but i'm sure i also read that if you ever diablerize your way to full Vampirehood you loose this capability. It seems you really do need Thin Blood to power this, potent blood just overwhelms it in too high volumes.

        As for whether other Kindred can drink your potion, i asked the same thing, but it does seem that i specifies certain ones that do, and some don't. i'd say ST decides if it isn't obvious, but for the most part i'd limit most to thin bloods - Full blooded Vamps have enough benefits without blood bonding their own personal chemist to give them enhancements!

        All that said, i'll be involving some Thin Bloods in a chronicle at some point as NPCs, in that case i will allow them to share a potion or two for story purposes and to show the versatility they can have, and also the threat they present...

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        • #5
          So i cant find anything about losing the alchemy if you become full vampire, i also cant find anything saying that it is only for thin bloods. I did look up the thin blood merit that gives you thin-blood alchemy, but it is implied that you can buy thin-blood alchemy with EXP as it states under thin-blood clan section that you can get it via a merit or exp. And under the merit it says you get a single dot and can buy more with exp "as usual".

          To me it seems to imply, though never say, that you can buy it as normal. If not, then it would seem that you can only pick up thin-blood alchemy at character creation as there does not appear to be any way to obtain thin-blood merits after character creation as they have no dot value.

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          • #6
            it's at the top, where you buy the Merits/Flaws:
            Thin-Blood Merits and Flaws
            These Merits and Flaws only apply to thin-blood characters. They have no dot value; each Flaw balances a Merit, and vice versa. They thus do not count against the maximum dots in Advantages and Flaws allowed to be selected during character creation or purchased through experience

            Also, it's called Thin Blooded Alchemy! it surely can't be used by someone that isn't a thin Blooded, otherwise it would just be called 'Alchemy'! You don't need the merit to learn it as a Thin Blood, the merit just gives you it at character creation for 'cheap'. You could also just spend XP on it so as not to gain a corresponding flaw.

            Likewise, i can't find the section that says they lose it if they go above 14th gen (highly likely i just made it up ) but again, i see it as a thin blood advantage and nothing else. I wouldn't give it to NPCs that aren't thin Blood and if a thin blooded layer ever got a lower gen, i'd have to think about it - my initial feeling is that it's powered by Thin Blood - which they no longer have. So, whilst they may still posses the knowledge on how to do this, they're now lacking the materials to do it (potentially exacerbated by whatever method of brewing they use). If i felt it was important to their character, i might let them keep it, but not allow growth, or at least make it out of clan costs (as they now have a clan plus Clan disciplines). Otherwise i'd convert all XP spent on that automatically into the new Clan powers.

            Ultimately it's up to the ST of your game, but it's clearly called Thin Blooded Alchemy for a reason, no way should this be available to anyone not thin blooded!

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            • #7
              The part that you copied about thin-blood merits and flaws does not say you can buy any of them after character creation. They do not have any any dot value and that is what sets the cost of normal advantages. Additionally under "creating a thin-blood" it says that you can have a max of three.

              And yes, it is called thin-blood alchemy, but that only implies that is it limited to thin-blood, I'm looking for something concrete, in the rules, that says so. If you do not need the merit to learn it then it functions as any other discipline from what i can gather an can be learned as an out of clan discipline from others.

              And while it is up to the ST at the end of the day as they can technically make any call about anything, i would prefer something concrete and grounded in the rules rather than interpretation or personal ideas.

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              • #8
                Advantages are 3 points per dot as listed on the experience table on pages 137 and 151. Thin blood merits and flaws have no dots so I would just say 3 points if you want to buy it after creation or see below. You can buy advantages after creation so you could buy this one with ST approval as well. When you gain this merit you get the first dot in Thin-blood alchemy and your first ritual. Since Thin-bloods have no disciplines of their own they would have to have this merit to get it.

                Since Thin-blooded alchemy is listed in the Discipline section, page 282, of both the book and the Thin-blood clan write up, page 113, I would conceder it their only in clan discipline and make it cost the same. New dot x 5 to advance once the variation in present in them via purchasing the merit.

                The biggest thing to remember in any WoD game is this is not a concise game. Rules in the rulebook will not be concise and they never have. you will always find something that doesn't always fit. The ultimate authority for rules of the game is your ST not the rulebook. The rulebook is just a guide and for the most part we follow it very closely but when you have a question your ST is the final authority. If you are the ST then you will need to use the book as a guide to make your rulings as fair as you can make them but every ST will play slightly different.

                For Example: In games I run I take the Gaining and Losing advantages sidebar, page 180, to another level. In previous editions you could gain and lose advantages without spending XP and in my game you can not buy an advantage you must go out into the game and earn it. On the flip side you may also earn Flaws and have advantages taken from you. this means your backgrounds are always fluid and you must do things in game to protect them. No rules mechanic protects them for you.

                So in my game if you did not buy the thin-blood alchemy merit at creation you could find someone to learn it for and negotiate gaining it. How you go about that and what you own will be up to the situation but you gain the merit for free. This would give you the first dot in Thin-blood alchemy and a ritual. From their you could become more powerful in thin-blood alchemy by spending XP but rituals would need both a teacher and XP.

                As another note, All XP expenditures in my game are by ST approval only you can not just spend them as my games need in game justification and scenes to do them. Sometimes this is just a downtime scene. But that is the way I run my game you may do something different but that is up to you. Just remember to always tell you players of rulings in advance never spring it on them that way it is far and they can make decisions on those rulings.

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