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  • Embraced Revenant

    If a revenant is embraced by their master. And they take the revenant discipline and weakness merit/flaw. Does this make them a caitiff, a bloodline, or just an oddity of that specific clan.

    For example let's say a Servant of Anushin-Rawan was embraced but kept his Auspex, Obfuscate, Presence. But he is embraced by Ventrue and doesn't possess the clan disciplines save for one. And if he took the weakness of the revenant he would even have the Ventrue clan weakness to boot but an additional one too.
    Last edited by TheHighlander; 12-12-2018, 07:24 PM. Reason: Fixing a mistake

  • #2
    Originally posted by TheHighlander View Post
    If a revenant is embraced by their master. And they take the revenant discipline and weakness merit/flaw. Does this make them a caitiff, a bloodline, or just an oddity of that specific clan.

    For example let's say a Servant of Anushin-Rawan was embraced but kept his Auspex, Obfuscate, Presence. But he is embraced by Ventrue and doesn't possess the clan disciplines save for one. And if he took the weakness of the revenant he wouldn't even have the Ventrue clan weakness.
    I think he'd still be considered a Ventrue.

    People may wonder if he's Caitiff but that requires a formal social repudiation.

    Personally, at my table, I wouldn't allow it.

    Dracula is an Embraced Basarab Revenant but he has the allergy to Garlic *AND* the Tzimisce Weakness.

    You have to pay to play.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      I think he'd still be considered a Ventrue.

      People may wonder if he's Caitiff but that requires a formal social repudiation.

      Personally, at my table, I wouldn't allow it.

      Dracula is an Embraced Basarab Revenant but he has the allergy to Garlic *AND* the Tzimisce Weakness.

      You have to pay to play.
      Sorry you are correct the merit cost 3 and the flaw cost 3 and gives you both weaknesses

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      • #4
        Originally posted by TheHighlander View Post
        If a revenant is embraced by their master. And they take the revenant discipline and weakness merit/flaw. Does this make them a caitiff, a bloodline, or just an oddity of that specific clan.

        For example let's say a Servant of Anushin-Rawan was embraced but kept his Auspex, Obfuscate, Presence. But he is embraced by Ventrue and doesn't possess the clan disciplines save for one. And if he took the weakness of the revenant he would even have the Ventrue clan weakness to boot but an additional one too.

        an oddity of that specific clan, but even then it would be rather easy to learn proper ventrue discplines.

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        • #5
          Oh definately. Additional discipline is 5 points. Add Domination to that spread and you have a social juggernaut

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TheHighlander View Post
            Oh definately. Additional discipline is 5 points. Add Domination to that spread and you have a social juggernaut

            the "common" disciplines can be learned without a teacher pre v5.. so even without having to spend 8 points on wierd merits your embraced revenant could easily learn dominate/fortitude. As for why he's not a bloodline founder and just weird presumably if each person who followed him in the embrace took his clan disciplines this would have shown up in the tzim a long time ago? as each Family there doesn't produce its own bloodline but rather needs a merit to even keep their wierd tricks they are just guys with wierd merits. He presumably would embrace a normal Ventrue who I might allow having fourth inclan

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            • #7
              Honestly the revenants are interesting but some of their load outs make no sense with the clan they are bonded to. I mean the Tzimisce have two bloodlines that have Protean (Both now dead), and two that know Obfuscate which is not part of their traditional load out, and not something believed to be something so simple to learn especially if your masters didn't have it (The others have combos using physical disciplines.).

              So it might just be seen as an oddity and one easily corrected via training. But I do think the Ventrue would be eager to see what a Ventrue with Auspex and Obfuscate could do.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TheLastSane1 View Post
                Honestly the revenants are interesting but some of their load outs make no sense with the clan they are bonded to. I mean the Tzimisce have two bloodlines that have Protean (Both now dead), and two that know Obfuscate which is not part of their traditional load out, and not something believed to be something so simple to learn especially if your masters didn't have it (The others have combos using physical disciplines.).

                So it might just be seen as an oddity and one easily corrected via training. But I do think the Ventrue would be eager to see what a Ventrue with Auspex and Obfuscate could do.

                Obfuscate is considered "Easy" to learn. Not like Protean or Quietus or anything proprietary.

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                • #9
                  In "V20 and pre" settings, there is also the issue of the xp/freebie cost of a first dot in a discipline. They are the same for in-clan and out-of-clan. Now, some editions put additional limitations on learning ooc disciplines, but once those conditions are met it is mechanically as easy for a Ventrue to learn the first dot of Auspex or Obfuscate (or even more obscure "proprietary" disciplines like Spiritus, Visceratika, or Valeran) as it is for that Ventrue to learn the first dot of Fortitude.

                  V5, thankfully, closed that loophole.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lian View Post


                    Obfuscate is considered "Easy" to learn. Not like Protean or Quietus or anything proprietary.
                    Where it is said that Protean is harder to learn than the ( other ) common Disciplines ? Isn't it is a common Discipline, unlike Serpentis or Obtenebration for example ?

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                      Where it is said that Protean is harder to learn than the ( other ) common Disciplines ? Isn't it is a common Discipline, unlike Serpentis or Obtenebration for example ?
                      Protean isn't a common discipline. It is like Serpentis and Obten,

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                      • #12
                        The status of Protean has been unsettled for a long time, existing in a vague space between common and proprietary.

                        Early By Night books tended to give nearly everyone some access to it. Though, in fairness, Thaumaturgy seemed pretty easy to access in early editions, too.

                        Do I recall a Ventrue who used Protean to merge with his own grave in the opening credits of that Aaron Spelling show which must never be mentioned?

                        In any case, if the dividing line between common and proprietary disciplines is considered to be whether more than one full clan has the discipline, the Ministry getting Protean in V5 just made it a common discipline.

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                        • #13
                          Protean is a proprietary discipline, but, the Gangrel tend to be more willing to teach it to outsiders, than other clans with proprietary disciplines are willing to teach theirs. Pretty much, if the Gangrel stands to gain something by educating another, and/or the other party has proven themselves worthy of the Gangrel's respect, they'll dish. It doesn't hurt Protean has incredible utility to its possessor, but doesn't really bring much to the table that's truly unique or game-changing in the sense that by teaching another, the Gangrel makes themselves or their clan vulnerable.

                          Then you gotta take into account that a goodly number of vampires pre-date the Industrial Revolution; meaning, no quick and easy transportation, no electric lighting, and daytime shelter could be difficult to come by especially during the heyday of the Inquisition and Anarch Revolt (for "true" elders). So, for those vampires, Protean wasn't so much a matter of convenience as it was survival. Natural selection (or as natural as it comes when discussing vampires) favors those best-disposed to survive, and being that Protean is one of the best tools for survival in a vampire's potential tool kit, it's no coincidence pre-industrial vampires trend strongly towards knowing Protean.

                          One could very easily make the same argument in favor of Animalism for pre-industrial vampires, due to the historic ubiquity of working animals, for that matter.

                          But, all the same, one doesn't need to be a Gangrel to teach Protean, just to know it. That drives the bargaining price of the discipline down when a vampire of any given clan can, with a bit of effort, find one of their own clan to teach it in absence of a willing Gangrel. It's better for a Gangrel to go ahead and teach it while they can capitalize on it.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                            In any case, if the dividing line between common and proprietary disciplines is considered to be whether more than one full clan has the discipline, the Ministry getting Protean in V5 just made it a common discipline.
                            There's no such thing as proprietary disciplines in v5. So that point is kind of moot? I Mean Serpentis isn't proprietary because its become part of protean, Obten isn't proprietary because its now oblvion and its shared with the Hecta. Quietus isn't proprietary because its Blood magic.

                            On the other hand ALL disciplines outside of clan require you to take the blood of another in v5 vs previous editions where this was not the case for Common disciplines so one could equally argue ALL disciplines are proprietary in v5.

                            But since we are talking about pre v5 editions by even talking about proprietary disciplines..

                            Protean could not be spontaniously manifested outside a Catiff(who could just as readily spontaniously manifest obten or thaum) and those who learned it out of clan couldn't take a specialized Fight /flight form and were stuck with wolf and bat.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lian View Post
                              Protean could not be spontaniously manifested outside a Catiff(who could just as readily spontaniously manifest obten or thaum) and those who learned it out of clan couldn't take a specialized Fight /flight form and were stuck with wolf and bat.
                              Except Tlacique, who claim to be Setites. They have Protean in-clan, and have Jaguars as their most common fight form... which is supposed to be impossible for any non-Gangrel. Of course, there could be a Drowned Legacies loophole of some sort.

                              Then there are the Noiad, who the Gangrel claim as one of their bloodlines. However, they have an entirely different and unrelated weakness, which makes the claim suspect. They also have a discipline spread and "mystic ruler of a people" lifestyle much more evocative of a Tzimisce (or at least proto-Tzimisce) bloodline. When they use their Protean, iirc, they can have forms other than wolf and bat. Of course, there could be a whatever-the-European-version-of-a-Drowned-Legacies-is loophole of some sort.

                              The Warrior variation of Gargoyles had Protean as an in-clan discipline, and so could manifest it spontaneously. I don't recall any sources saying whether they can do forms other than wolf-bat. Would this make a stone wolf with wings? Is their flight form a rock pigeon?

                              Finally, in Lore of the Clans (p91) it says: "Note that non-Gangrel characters always turn into a wolf and bat, unless they select the Totemic Change Merit". The Totemic Change merit (LotC, p87) allows the user to take any animal form when using Protean, and appears to be available to non-Gangrel. Weirdly, this means that although we, ooc, "know" that only Gangrel can take a form other than wolf-bat, in-world that would be a less certain thing. Presumably, somewhere in the WoD is a Toreador who can turn into a peacock or whatever.

                              Given that the first half of the quote on p91 is clearly incorrect due to the Tlacique, perhaps we should discount the second half, as well. Chalk it up to a continuity hiccup, missed by the editor, I guess.

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