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[V5] I think Paths and Roads should be Loresheets now

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  • [V5] I think Paths and Roads should be Loresheets now

    I think that'd be a good way to bring them into 5E.

    It's still Humanity.

    But the Loresheet dictates your Ambition and it's 5 levels of "gifts" related to the ideology you follow.

    What do you guys think?


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

  • #2
    i think a new system alltogether would be necessary

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
      i think a new system alltogether would be necessary
      Eh, Humanity allows you to follow Paths without another system now.

      This would just preserve their lore role.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4
        maybe,but i feel that a new system may give uniqueness to the Sabbat

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        • #5
          I've been playing around with this idea in my head as well. Given that Humanity = Chronicle tenets rather than a fixed list of sins, having the paths function like lore sheets could work. I could see some dots giving social benefits (since you have your vampire support group to reach out to) whereas others might give you bonus dice to resist frenzy or degeneration when undertaking an action that aligns with the Path.


          Malkavian Madness Forum - Your pbp fix. Be it nWoD, cWoD, CoC, D&D or something else entirely, come over here and get your game on

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            I think that'd be a good way to bring them into 5E.

            It's still Humanity.

            But the Loresheet dictates your Ambition and it's 5 levels of "gifts" related to the ideology you follow.

            What do you guys think?
            Hmmm, the idea may have some potential. I'm not sure I'm picturing it the same way you are. Can you sketch out an example?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              What do you guys think?
              I think Paths of Enlightenment should be done in V5 through both a new morality system, and Loresheets ( mainly for particularly dedicated Path followers ) .
              Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-16-2018, 10:08 AM.

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              • #8
                Eh, Humanity allows you to follow Paths without another system now.
                That's the problem right here for me : Paths are inhumane by design, so to fold them into humanity, just... feels wrong.
                If it was a loresheet, it should precise that by following said path, you engage yourself on a road toward inhumanity, not Humanity 2.5
                But I'm partial to another system altogether, more rigid, and reminiscent of the path as they are now. A path is an exacting code, with far less leeway than Humanity (apart from path variants) (hence the interest of it (for me, that is ^^)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Darthpalpy View Post
                  That's the problem right here for me : Paths are inhumane by design, so to fold them into humanity, just... feels wrong.
                  If it was a loresheet, it should precise that by following said path, you engage yourself on a road toward inhumanity, not Humanity 2.5
                  But I'm partial to another system altogether, more rigid, and reminiscent of the path as they are now. A path is an exacting code, with far less leeway than Humanity (apart from path variants) (hence the interest of it (for me, that is ^^)
                  Basically, I'm all about Paths and Humanity being two sides of the same coin. Whatever keeps you from the Beast.

                  Loresheets could include ways of rerolling lost humanity and friendships among fellow devotees I think


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Basically, I'm all about Paths and Humanity being two sides of the same coin. Whatever keeps you from the Beast.

                    Loresheets could include ways of rerolling lost humanity and friendships among fellow devotees I think

                    I tend to agree, I have had some requests in my game for alternative paths to the premise of "holding on to humanity" and I agree that such a system makes sense for older Vampires which in my game is kind of the premise (the players are effectively playing from 800 A.D. to present).

                    I think Loresheets are kind of a great generic way to introduce alternative backgrounds and generally alternative systems as it uses the basic dot system for providing benefits, yet its non-specific enough that it's very flexible in how you could introduce it.

                    Vampire has always been a game about picking and choosing what to use, while simultanously everything in the game was an example of "how to create something". So for example Paths in the previous system could be used as written but you also had a clear example how to create your own.

                    The concept of Touchstones is really geared towards younger vampires, ones that still in many ways consider themselves human, but as the humanity drops to those lower levels, they become rather deviant creatures who wouldn't care about touchstones at all. I mean, if your not concerned with preserving human life anymore, why would you care about holding on to your humanity. There is a disconnect there so I think it makes sense that a vampire that has slipped far enough would reject touchstone and eventually create his own morale compass.

                    I think Loresheets are a good example of how this could be done as they pretty much follow along the same principle of paths as written in previous editions, with the exception being that there are some pre-requisites and instructions for why or how you would come by a Loresheet/path.

                    Now that said I don't see why it would be difficult to implement paths as written in the previous edition, I mean, I don't see any issue by simply using them as they are without any changes. Unless Im missing something the humanity system in this edition is only different in the sense that your morale tenents are attached to a mortal touchstone, beyond that it pretty much serves the same purpose so if you abandon your touchstones and refocus on a path, you would simply use it as written.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by xguild View Post

                      The concept of Touchstones is really geared towards younger vampires, ones that still in many ways consider themselves human, but as the humanity drops to those lower levels, they become rather deviant creatures who wouldn't care about touchstones at all. I mean, if your not concerned with preserving human life anymore, why would you care about holding on to your humanity. There is a disconnect there so I think it makes sense that a vampire that has slipped far enough would reject touchstone and eventually create his own morale compass.
                      Requiem allowed for Touchstones to be a bit more flexible. An elder might have a gravesite from his human past as a touchstone or even younger vampires. The key factor is that a touchstone helps remind a vampire of their humanity. Without some moral compass, some remnant of consistence, there is only the beast.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Wissenschaft View Post

                        Requiem allowed for Touchstones to be a bit more flexible. An elder might have a gravesite from his human past as a touchstone or even younger vampires. The key factor is that a touchstone helps remind a vampire of their humanity. Without some moral compass, some remnant of consistence, there is only the beast.

                        Yes but that defeats the mechanical purpose of the touchstone. A gravestone is less an attachment and more a memory. The purpose of touchstones is to have a vulnerability, something that can be exposed. Keeping your touchstones safe, is intended to be a part of the vampires willful resistance to becoming a monster.

                        I know that not everyone agrees that touchstones are a good idea or representative of Vampire as it has existed for the last two decades, but in V5, it fufills the purpose of trying to humanize a vampires existence to make them more a reflection of humanity as we know it (as players). Part of the disconnect in the old Vampires way of handling humanity was that it was effectively a system of punishment that was enforced arbitrarly as a mechanic. Aka you didn't kill or harm humans or act like a deviant because it would lower your humanity and there were distinct penalties for losing your humanity.

                        With the introduction of Touchstones, players are given an oppertunity to define their version of humanity and they create a mortal being that reflects that, giving them both a moral compass and a meaningful personage behind it to care about.

                        I wasn't entirely sold on it before we started playing V5, but now that we are several sessions into our chronicle, I have found, next to Hunger, to be one of the most defining elements to the game that creates a tremendous amount of role-playing and narratives onto which player latch on. It has been amazing.

                        Though again, I believe that the humanity slip, means ultimatetly as characters these vampires will eventually slip from grace as their schemes and struggles result in touchstones becoming collateral damage. Eventually they will need to be less human and more vampire which is a progression I think is in-theme with a Vampire The Masquerade chroncile, it is after all in many ways a story about humans becoming monsters. As such I think Paths.. or as I like to call them "codes" are kind of a reasonable alternative to touchstones... monsters that become disillusioned with mortality and humanity and evolve into something more devious.

                        That's just my take on it.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by xguild View Post
                          (...) The purpose of touchstones is to have a vulnerability, something that can be exposed. Keeping your touchstones safe, is intended to be a part of the vampires willful resistance to becoming a monster.
                          Items can be stolen, lost, destroyed, or damaged. Places can be damaged, destroyed, or altered.

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                          • #14
                            I'm still a little confused by the whole thread, because I can't picture what Paths would look like with their mechanics portrayed using Loresheets.

                            My initial hunch is to not like it. I have three main hesitations.

                            First, Loresheets are Backgrounds, which exist at the collective fiat of other people. If the local mortal authorities decided to tear down the old warehouse on the outskirts of town, the pc who uses it as a Haven needs to prevent that, or lose the Background. It's hard to imagine some ruling body of the Path of the Feral Heart coming together to excommunicate a member, and thus send them spiraling quickly down to wassail. In spite of all the rituals and the learning from more experienced path followers, in the end, a Path is an internal, spiritual experience which should not be able to be easily taken away by others.

                            Second, I'm not clear how it would interact with a pc's current, existing Convictions, and chronicle Tenets. Would a pc keep their existing Convictions, but have Loresheet traits that allow them to ignore them? The Humanity section (V5, p240) explains how the destruction of a Touchstone can lead to the loss of a Conviction, and how an existing Conviction might be transferred to a new Touchstone. I can't find anything about how to voluntarily removing a Conviction, and replacing it with another. So, adding some Loresheets connected to Paths is only a side bit of story detail, not the primary mechanic of Paths. That is, I can totally see having Loresheets for some of the relationships and abilities one gains from a Path, but not the Path itself.

                            Third, Loresheets are discontinuous rather than cumulative traits. You can buy level 4 of a Loresheet without buying any other level in it, and do not gain benefit from dots 1-3 just because you buy level 4. This means that if Paths are run using a Loresheet structure, the most dedicated Path leaders might have the greatest benefits of the Path, but none of the minor ones. This seems... awkward, to say the least.

                            All that said, if someone posted an example of how this would work, I might grow to like it a great deal. But, at the moment, we're talking about a vague idea that Paths might be Loresheets, rather than a concrete system for doing so.

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                            • #15
                              I think Loresheets as an idea for these is an interesting one, but i'm not sure it's what i'd want, as why should a Path follower get access to benefits that someone on Humanity doesn't, unless they state that you automatically also gain certain flaws as well (permanent appearance of a Humanity 3 Vamp for example). Plus, these are optional, which means a character with 9 in a path might not have any of these backgrounds, whereas someone with only a few dots in it, might have a whole raft of them.

                              Now the Humanity system has been overhauled, i'm not sure Paths will come back in the same sense - sure, they're have thematic content, followers and history but i'm not sure what rules they would have need of?

                              One downside of Chronicle tenets is of course that they only apply to the players - and indeed that they cover all the players. It doesn't give a useful barometer on what the morality of NPCs is, and doesn't allow a player to have different beliefs than the rest of the group (or rather not as easily, and it can punish them). Now, does that matter? for the most part no - it certainly won't in any games i'm running. but i can see how it could in others.

                              I wrote this in another thread, but Humanity now is less about how Humane you are, and more about how close you feel to your human life and morals, as well as how close the beast has come to overpowering you. It's also a bit like the Id and Ego (at least according to my cod understanding of psychology). Whether you use the fact that life is sacred, or that Vampires are the dominant species and people are cattle as your bulwark, i'm not sure it matter now.

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