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[V5] I think Paths and Roads should be Loresheets now

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Black Flag View Post

    Indeed, God in the WoD isn’t depicted as particularly benevolent himself, which explains a lot about the setting. But when it comes to Roads and True Faith and whatnot, the in-universe reality of God is mostly irrelevant. It’s about the belief of the person in question.

    It’s worth noting, incidentally, that True Faith in V5 does *not* appear to require any particular Humanity rating. It’s a wild card that nobody understands or can predict, though it seems to correlate to having survived horrific experiences.
    ehhhhh....

    I'm not entirely onboard with that.

    I've actually used True Faith just as a form of Numina where it's just a form of Hedge Magic. Basically, it works like True Magic. You believe very very strongly that Odin, Krishna, or Christ has your back and that helps you against supernatural problems.

    Anyone can have it.

    HOWEVER, I like the much harder, "You are sponsored by a God of some kind" which requires high humanity.

    Because if it's JUST a form of Numina then you get things like The Tome of Bill where a guy tries to hit vampires with Optimus Prime in his original packaging.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
      you'd have to ask those who read hunter: the reckoning and demon: the fallen
      (...)
      Thank you.

      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
      how is this relevant? you think God's representatives have to be all benevolent?

      for your info, the vampires on the Road were themselves fanatical Crusaders,
      so I don't think morals (at least, what you describe as morals) counted for much
      My point is that many members of the Catholic Church ( and other Christians ) obviously did not follow neither the intent nor the letter of the Christian religion and faith. I think that Vampires ( and anyone, really ) would sooner consider them to not be acting on in accordance with the Christian deity's plans ( or acting contrary to them ) , than they would think them to be doing what the Christian deity wanted to happen. All in all, I don't think that Vampires would consider the Inquisition ( or other mundane humans) against the Vampires as definitely happening because the Christian deity ( or other deity, or a spirit ) steered the mundane humans in this direction. It might be a consideration for some, but I think there are many alternative view points - for which there is significantly more support and evidence - that a Vampire could assume and come to in regard to such events.
      Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-26-2018, 11:45 AM.

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      • #48
        I don’t think the vampires would be any better then the humans of their time at figuring out the teachings of their religion, much less the actual will of God. They’re coming from the same culture. Moreover, they have a demonstrated tendency towards self-loathing, and Christianity didn’t exactly reduce that. Many may well have believed they deserved the Inquisition.

        Believing they were *not* cursed and sinful was and is still a heresy even in th modern nights.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
          Believing they were *not* cursed and sinful was and is still a heresy even in th modern nights.
          I haven't read anything like this in any V:tM book. What do mean by this ? Who and why considers this a heresy, and in which book(s) is this described ?
          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-02-2019, 07:58 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
            I haven't read anything like this in any V:tM book. What do mean by this ? Who and why considers this a heresy, and in which book(s) is this described ?
            It’s a part of the weird Setite Ministry ur-religion, for one, but mostly I’m thinking if the Cainite Heresy. It got its own book in the Dark Ages line, is probably meant to be one of the origins of the religion of the Sabbat, and has been brought back in the form of the Church of Caine in V5. It’s discussed in all V5 books so far.

            The Camarilla basically banned it, not just because ir promoted belief in the Antediluvians, but also because the Camarilla, for all its claim to be secular, is still culturally Christian, and all those medieval vampires who founded it held a basically Christian worldview according to which they suffered a curse from God, and saying it was really a blessing and the Beast should be allowed to do as it likes was seen as detrimental to cultivating Humanity.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
              I don’t think the vampires would be any better then the humans of their time at figuring out the teachings of their religion, much less the actual will of God. They’re coming from the same culture. Moreover, they have a demonstrated tendency towards self-loathing, and Christianity didn’t exactly reduce that. Many may well have believed they deserved the Inquisition.

              Believing they were *not* cursed and sinful was and is still a heresy even in th modern nights.
              Being a vampire is a bit like being an alcoholic combined with murder.

              Managing the addiction requires you to know you have a problem.



              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #52
                Vampires are mechanically not damned. At least not in the sense of "when they are destroyed, their souls go immediately to some sort of hell, regardless of their behavior on Earth".

                In V20, and previous editions, Necromancy worked just fine on vampires who had been destroyed. The exception being those whose souls had been destroyed outright by diablerie. Now, some vampires were unable to be contacted with Necromancy, presumably because their souls had moved on to some other plane of existence. This is also true of some humans, however, who have passed on to the Far Shores or were somehow destroyed outright.

                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                Being a vampire is a bit like being an alcoholic combined with murder.

                Managing the addiction requires you to know you have a problem.
                Except believing that you are "damned", at least in the "feed all the orphans and hug all the puppies you want, you're still going to hell" sense, doesn't promote better behavior. For alcoholics, yes, the first step is admitting there is a problem. The second, and less quoted in the popular press, step is coming to believe a power greater than yourself can restore you to sanity.

                If vampires complete the first step and call themselves "damned", but believe that this is an unchangeable and unavoidable condition, then why be virtuous? You're going to hell anyway, so go ahead, eat a few more peasants and torture a few more servants. If anything, believing in automatic damnation would logically lead to a Salubrian scheme where the vampires make sure they are diablerized rather than destroyed in other ways, to cheat the devil his due.

                Just remember: one blood point is too much, and an entire herd is never enough. Keep coming back!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
                  Vampires are mechanically not damned. At least not in the sense of "when they are destroyed, their souls go immediately to some sort of hell, regardless of their behavior on Earth".

                  In V20, and previous editions, Necromancy worked just fine on vampires who had been destroyed. The exception being those whose souls had been destroyed outright by diablerie. Now, some vampires were unable to be contacted with Necromancy, presumably because their souls had moved on to some other plane of existence. This is also true of some humans, however, who have passed on to the Far Shores or were somehow destroyed outright.
                  Random aside but I actually have a house rule that addresses this. In my games, every person who is turned into a vampire and who has fed becomes a wraith after death.

                  Because the Underworld IS hell.

                  At least as the universe views it.

                  Except believing that you are "damned", at least in the "feed all the orphans and hug all the puppies you want, you're still going to hell" sense, doesn't promote better behavior. For alcoholics, yes, the first step is admitting there is a problem. The second, and less quoted in the popular press, step is coming to believe a power greater than yourself can restore you to sanity.
                  Which is why Golconda exists, mind you. Mind you, the books made it so nebulous and so confusing that it became a completely uninteresting goal to pursue in the game.

                  If vampires complete the first step and call themselves "damned", but believe that this is an unchangeable and unavoidable condition, then why be virtuous?
                  Philosophically, can a person who believes in transactional morality ever be virtuous?

                  You're going to hell anyway, so go ahead, eat a few more peasants and torture a few more servants. If anything, believing in automatic damnation would logically lead to a Salubrian scheme where the vampires make sure they are diablerized rather than destroyed in other ways, to cheat the devil his due.

                  Just remember: one blood point is too much, and an entire herd is never enough. Keep coming back!
                  In fact, what you're describing to me is the core essence of V5 as the heart of what I think it and 1st edition do is the debate on what exactly the sort of actions one should take when one is turned into a vampire should be if you are a moral (or want to be) a moral person. You have been transformed into an evil creature that is inherently destructive to your fellow person.

                  Do you:

                  * Turn to religion
                  * Give up religion
                  * Try to be good anyway
                  * Abandon yourself to hedonistic excess because nothing matters
                  * Attempt to accomplish goals through evil means you wouldn't normally do so

                  That's the entire point of being a vampire to me, at least.

                  I have a serious problem that makes me do bad things.

                  How do I deal with it?

                  What your answer is, is your character.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    Philosophically, can a person who believes in transactional morality ever be virtuous?
                    What is the transactional morality that you are referring to here ? ( A quick internet search gave different and indistinct answers in regard to the meaning(s) of this term. )

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                      What is the transactional morality that you are referring to here ? ( A quick internet search gave different and indistinct answers in regard to the meaning(s) of this term. )
                      That you do good to get into heaven.

                      They talk about in The Good Place.

                      If you find out about the Good Place, you don't get into it as it means you're only doing good deeds for payment.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        That you do good to get into heaven.
                        Is that a widespread attitude / outlook among Christians ? I do wonder how many persons in Poland ( where I live ) think according to this in regard to their choices and decisions. Going by how many persons seem religous and/or believing in Catholicism, I could assume that many do. But at the same time, very few persons seem to try to do good ( in a very simple definition of this word - kindness, tolerance, empathy etc. ) in how they act.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                          Is that a widespread attitude / outlook among Christians ? I do wonder how many persons in Poland ( where I live ) think according to this in regard to their choices and decisions. Going by how many persons seem religous and/or believing in Catholicism, I could assume that many do. But at the same time, very few persons seem to try to do good ( in a very simple definition of this word - kindness, tolerance, empathy etc. ) in how they act.
                          Well my general assumption in America and a religious person myself, there's a wide variety of how people react and how religion influences them.

                          The idea you should be good so God doesn't damn you to hell is the most basic and poorest view of it, IMHO.

                          I was a Catholic until I left the church over recent scandals.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            Random aside
                            I love that you started a discussion of predestination and faith/works with the word "random". I always enjoy your posts. I have got to get off my lazy ass and read some of your books.

                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            but I actually have a house rule that addresses this. In my games, every person who is turned into a vampire and who has fed becomes a wraith after death.

                            Because the Underworld IS hell.

                            At least as the universe views it.
                            I can buy it, and it's a good enough explanation for a roleplaying table hand-wave.

                            On a philosophical level, though, it gets awfully definitional about the whole thing. Most people when they say "Hell" don't picture a variety of outcomes in the same setting, where some people are turned into a tire for a ghost car, and others put together a fairly pleasant existence with friends, hobbies, jobs, and a safe place to hide from any bad stuff that's wandering about.

                            When characters in-world say, "We are vampires and are certainly damned", they don't mean, "If I greet the dawn, I will then awaken, have my caul removed, and try to get recruited by one of the better guilds. Hmmm, I wonder how I can stash some artifacts for later use." They mean they will be sent to a place of eternal torment, not just a slightly crapsack-ier version of the WoD. Or, they're just chewing scenery.

                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            Which is why Golconda exists, mind you. Mind you, the books made it so nebulous and so confusing that it became a completely uninteresting goal to pursue in the game.
                            Yeah. Golconda is at most a McGuffin, and usually it's just an off-stage distraction. For the vast, vast majority of vampire pcs it will never happen, and isn't even a realistic option for them.

                            This, from a viewpoint of well-written vs. poorly written, definitely places it in the latter category. Chekov's gun and all that.

                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            Philosophically, can a person who believes in transactional morality ever be virtuous?
                            I don't believe in a literal afterlife, but sometimes I hope I'm wrong. When I die and go to the pearly gates, my first question would be, "How did Zwingli's dice roll turn out? Did he crit on his Resolve + Predestination roll, or what?"

                            The grace vs. works debate goes back a long time, and yields a circular, chicken-egg argument. Those who are among the elect show this by their virtuous lives, and those who are not show it by their evil acts... yada yada yada.

                            The whole debate only exists because Christian theologians painted themselves into a corner putting forward an omnipotent, omniscient deity in a dualistic universe, with an antipodean adversary who was not similarly powerful. This causes all sorts of problems with predestination and whether "God" can be called "good" or not.

                            They should have just cribbed the rest of Zoroastrianism while they were at it. Or, gone further East for a "what is good?" approach. As it is, Christian theology is clearly written by a committee. It does not lend itself well to an orderly system of game mechanics.

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                            • #59
                              I always tell my atheist friends to be like Einstein and note that since time is a block that consciousness moves through, we never truly die. We experience and that information becomes part of the universe that is fundamentally energy formed into information.

                              So even if you don't believe in God, the Force is objectively real.

                              But my own view of God is informed by the fact that good is going to look very different from a being that is omnipotent and omniscient and has an infinite lifespan that encompasses all possibilities.

                              I call it Cthulhu Christianity.



                              But that just exposes me as a VERY weird person.

                              Edit:

                              Anyway, I think what's important regardless of religion or afterlife or anything in vampire is that a major part of the game's drama is the idea of GUILT and the idea of FAILURE at heroism with a side order of ATONEMENT and REDEMPTION. These are very Christian-expanded on ideals but they're not actually necessary for a discussion of Vampire: The Masquerade. Still, a large part of what I perceive as the difference between V:TM and, say, Champions or Dungeons and Dragons is the power fantasy of being a vampire is muted by the serious drawbacks to a guy trying to use his abilities for good.

                              A vampire character should, in a traditional Camarilla or Anarch game start as a person with a relatively solid morality system. You can be a hitman, secret agent, or whatnot but I think the best starting point is someone who was a decent (if not exceptionally good) person who has been thrust into this terrible world.

                              They don't want to kill people, albeit may be tempted to do so if they encounter a truly awful scumbag.

                              However, the circumstances of being a vampire will tempt them to do so.

                              The Hunger (Gluttony)
                              The Beast (Wrath)
                              Disciplines (Pride)

                              When you're a Neonate, the Disciplines will offer all manner of temptations to abuse be it humiliate or control people who looked down on you before or make yourself wealthy or even just scare the hell out of people who used to frighten you. There will also soon be Envy as you find yourself surrounded by vampires much richer, much prettier, much more powerful, and much higher ranked than you.

                              If you want and I encourage this, I have a lot of vampires who do try to do good things with their powers. Contrary to the stereotype, being a superhero with fangs is good if you are trying to atone for the frenzy that killed someone innocent or the First Feeding where you ate your sister.

                              Vampyr does a great opening.

                              Start at 2:00 to skip the opening cinematic.

                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 01-04-2019, 08:04 PM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                                The idea you should be good so God doesn't damn you to hell is the most basic and poorest view of it, IMHO.
                                Is this viewpoint / attitude at all talked about or referred to by anyone except the Christian clergy ; or in day-to-day life it is just assumed ? I have a very hard time believing and considering that, except for the very rare exceptions, persons would consider this a factor in their decisions and attitudes.
                                Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-08-2019, 07:29 AM.

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