Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What if we Tremerified another Mage Group

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
    On the other hand you could argue that in truly ancient times being a mage was something common. Caine has “invented“ murder and thus did something not supported by the Consensus.
    Technically he could still be a mage, since he never died.
    The Antedeluvians where certainly special people, at their time this easily implied being a mage (if being awakened was indeed not rare).
    Where did you read that Mages were more common in the ancient times ? I think even if there were more of them, then Awakening into being a Mage certainly didn't happen that often that Mages could be considered 'common' .
    I can definitely see some of the 3rd Generation Vampires being Mages. Maybe some of them could be this kind of Mage that considers herself or himself to be simply "a lot more capable" than mundane humans. But there is no tangible evidence that most or all of them were Mages. Though it is an interesting possibility to consider.

    Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
    On the other hand you could argue that in truly ancient times being a mage was something common. Caine has “invented“ murder and thus did something not supported by the Consensus.
    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

    Correct, I remember a MtA supplement ("Ascension", perhaps) saying that murder was a vulgar effect back then and that the knife Caine used was the first magic focus in history.
    I really like this part of M:tA . Was making of stone tools and their use Magickal Effects of Matter 2, 3, or 4 ? Was cooking a Matter 2 or 3 Effect of early Mages ? Were the first explorers and traders Mages using simple, Coincidental Correspondence Effects ? I also disagree with this. Mages and Magick are not literally needed for advancements and progress in means, results, and capabilities.
    Caine's murder might have changed the Consensus ( if it is assumed that the M:tA Consensus exists ) , but killing a person wasn't so unordinary that the act was a Magickal Effect. ( Also, I prefer to think that Caine was a particularly noteworthy murderer, rather than literally the first one. Noteworthy because of who he killed, why, and how he acted after doing it. And noteworthy because he became a Vampire after the deed. )


    Originally posted by Nonsense View Post
    Technically he could still be a mage, since he never died.
    I think that becoming Vampire is what separates the Mage from the Avatar and cuts of the ( former ) Mage from Magick, no matter if it might happen that a person becomes a Vampire without first dieing ( or being on the verge of death ) .
    I can definitely see Caine becoming a Blood Magician ( after he became a Vampire ) . Maybe with some distinctly primal ( but not simplistic at all ) approach and outlook ; but he could just as easily use high ritual, for example.

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    The ... paradigm for the Vampire settings and books is actually to give _Less_ details the more powerful a vampire is, to better facilitate the Storyteller using them in whatever way they are needed. Same with the characters and their history before the embrace. Less is objectively known about those that lived at the dawn of civilization compared to modern vampires. Also, the word count isn't justified for details that aren't required for playing them now.
    I don't think this justifies considering any persons in WoD to be or once have been Mages based on a few sentences indicating interest in spellcasting ,and mystical and/or occult knowledge. More than this is needed.

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    Let me take a couple of examples -
    Myka Vykos - " Myca seemed destined for greatness from a young age. As a child, his fits and visions brought him to the attention of House Tremere within the Order of Hermes. He learned the basics of spellcraft and proved such an adept student that he inspired jealousy in the magus Goratrix. Goratrix's later attempt to betray Myca to Tzimisce Cainites backfired, and the young boy found himself among the Fiends."
    He has no stats for him as a mage, or feats. Do we say he wasn't a mage then?
    "Proved to be such an adept student that he inspired jealousy in the magus Goratrix." is a feat that indicates that Vykos was a Mage. Also, i really doubt that Goratrix would betray a talented Sorcerer to the Tzimisce. "Fits and visions" points towards a Mage rather than a Sorcerer. I would say based on these that Vykos was a Mage before he was Embraced.

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    Tremere and the Inner Council of Clan Tremere - We know that they were mages in theory, but I've never seen their stats, or details of their magic other than the fact that they had potions of long life and apparently "By Ritual" Made themselves vampires, but that could have just been "The Embrace" in practical terms (Mage supplements may detail them as mages, but I've not seen that)
    The ritual that the then Council of the Seven performed is described briefly in House of Tremere Dark Ages book ; the original Tremere Vampires weren't Embraced ( unless what happened is called a self-Embrace, but this is besides the point ) .
    In regard to the Mages of the House Tremere, the fact that they were one of the Founding Houses of the Order of Hermes - an organization of Mages - is enough for me in regard considering them Mages.

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    Even Lillith, who is described as the first awakened soul in some sources, mother of monsters in others - I've seen no Mage Stats for her.
    That Lilith helped Caine in regard to developing the Disciplines points to her being a Mage. The Verbenae also think that she is one of first Mages. I think it definietly makes sense that she is a Mage. I hope that more is written about her in the future in WoD books.
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-12-2019, 12:46 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
      Caine's murder might have changed the Consensus ( if it is assumed that the M:tA Consensus exists ) , but killing a person wasn't so unordinary that the act was a Magickal Effect.
      No, it literary was. That was the first homicide in history, no one ever killed another man before Caine and even killing beasts was pretty new.
      In your personal campaign you can have whatever history you want but this is how things are as far as the WoD metaplot is concerned. Even assuming that fratricide was heinous enough to get God's curse anyway, the Knife of Ixion wouldn't be that special without being the first focus for the first murder.

      "Proved to be such an adept student that he inspired jealousy in the magus Goratrix." is a feat that indicates that Vykos was a Mage. Also, i really doubt that Goratrix would betray a talented Sorcerer to the Tzimisce. "Fits and visions" points towards a Mage rather than a Sorcerer. I would say based on these that Vykos was a Mage before he was Embraced.
      Or a sorcerer. Let's not forget that hedge magician are a lot more than Awakened magi and often even stronger in their specific field.

      In regard to the Mages of the House Tremere, the fact that they were one of the Founding Houses of the Order of Hermes - an organization of Mages - is enough for me in regard considering them Mages.
      Well, it's quite well established that the Tremere used Awakened magick at this point.

      That Lilith helped Caine in regard to developing the Disciplines points to her being a Mage. The Verbenae also think that she is one of first Mages. I think it definietly makes sense that she is a Mage. I hope that more is written about her in the future in WoD books.
      All considered, she probably was. Not only she discovered the power in Caine's curse but she also taught him how to use it - powers of mind control, so I'd say she was proficent in life, prime and mind magick. Not that many campaigns are going to use Lilith or Caine anyway, so it's probably just an academic discussion. =P

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
        I don't think this justifies considering any persons in WoD to be or once have been Mages based on a few sentences indicating interest in spellcasting ,and mystical and/or occult knowledge. More than this is needed.

        "Proved to be such an adept student that he inspired jealousy in the magus Goratrix." is a feat that indicates that Vykos was a Mage. Also, i really doubt that Goratrix would betray a talented Sorcerer to the Tzimisce. "Fits and visions" points towards a Mage rather than a Sorcerer. I would say based on these that Vykos was a Mage before he was Embraced.

        The ritual that the then Council of the Seven performed is described briefly in House of Tremere Dark Ages book ; the original Tremere Vampires weren't Embraced ( unless what happened is called a self-Embrace, but this is besides the point ) .
        In regard to the Mages of the House Tremere, the fact that they were one of the Founding Houses of the Order of Hermes - an organization of Mages - is enough for me in regard considering them Mages.
        My point is that you said you need stats to prove it, and White Wolf hasn't done that for most characters before embrace. Fuzzy information is all that exists, so if you are making subjective decisions on what is a mage or not based on fluff, then you are using criteria that is fuzzy itself.

        Comment

        Working...
        X