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Modiphius taking over Vampire: The Masquerade

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  • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post

    Soak was only a small part of the issue. Mostly it was: a hit with 1-2 success, then no damage or damage that could easily be soaked. And I had more than my share of combats where this was happening. Hit, but no appreciable damage deal. Combat was extremly whiffy, unless you used morning stars and the like.
    As I said, not my experience. Of course, there ar lot of moving parts in there. What weapon, what defense, how much soak, vampire vs. mundanes, werewolves vs. mundanes, etc.

    I'm not bothered vampries being resistant to lot of things. Still, when faced with the proper threat, things start to die quite easily, in my experience.

    Or, you could have an abymsal lucj with damage rolls.


    If nothing worked, then let's think!

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    • Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post


      The last thing major thing that makes us like the fact that cWoD is mostly unconcerned with balance between individual powers and factions, is that there's a bevy of interestingly written powers and the like the effects and output of which are incomparable to many other abilities. The benefits of Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude are easily enough expressed and modeled in mathematical terms... but how do you model that against Shadowstep? Or Chimerstry 3? Or Obtenebration 5? How do any of these stack up level-for-level against Animalism or Dementation? Who knows. If the game developers had been overly concerned with mechanical game balance, you'd lose some of the more interesting supernatural capabilities throughout the cWoD, because you can't really balance a series of things unless you can build a model that somewhat accurately reflects the benefits of each for the purposes of comparison. And we like the oddball, useful-in-a-four-dimensional-sense sort of powers. They make the games (all the WoD games) very different from other RPG's. Werewolf is a particularly good example of a system that where some of the charm would be list if there were too much of a concern with proper mechanical balance--shifter gifts are super are all over the map. If you look at CoD (formerly nWoD), as well-balanced as it mostly is across its game lines (certainly moreso than cWoD), they had to abandon some of the more mind-bendy powers to pull off that balance.
      I wholeheartedly agree. Some people liked how NWoD had thrown out the "more outlandish powers". Some like it in V5 too. I went "meh". I liked those, as you called it, "odball powers", however "unbalanced" they were in the hands of a clever player. That was the point. Not the OP-ness, but that non-linear thinking with those powers made the game intersting.

      Also, some epic stuff was just epic and apic isn't bad, whatever the "pureübergrimdarkpurepersonalhorror" people think.


      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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      • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
        Also, some epic stuff was just epic and apic isn't bad, whatever the "pureübergrimdarkpurepersonalhorror" people think.
        Hey, you know, to each their own. I just wish my life were so great or easy, and I felt so empowered from day-to-day, that I'd need my fantasy world to be a depressing exercise in powerlessness as I'd spiral into ennui and immoral decadence lol.



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        • Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
          Hey, you know, to each their own. I just wish my life were so great or easy, and I felt so empowered from day-to-day, that I'd need my fantasy world to be a depressing exercise in powerlessness as I'd spiral into ennui and immoral decadence lol.
          Thanks for the laugh!

          Of course, WoD has a good chunk of oppressiveness and all the stuff. That's absolutely a part of it, and partly why I don't like the absence of elders (and didn't like it in VtR 1e either) is that they are a strong part of it.

          Anyway, yes, all those things are important parts of how I picture WoD. But you know, there is another side of that, the punk part, the dark-comics aesthetics part, the metal album cover Bradstreet illustrations part, the The Crow part. The cool part, the epic part, the part that is fucking Lestat, in comparison to the game's "Louise elements" and there's nothing wrong with that.

          Hence why I say WoD is dark urban fantasy (with strong horror elements) for me.

          Also, I realized, when I started learning Shadowrun, that that settign has the dark and serious parts too, sometimes even surpassing WoD. But you know, it doesn't apologize for embracing the cool parts too and I like that.


          If nothing worked, then let's think!

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          • Originally posted by CaptOtter
            Hey, you know, to each their own. I just wish my life were so great or easy, and I felt so empowered from day-to-day, that I'd need my fantasy world to be a depressing exercise in powerlessness as I'd spiral into ennui and immoral decadence lol.
            Originally posted by PMárk View Post
            Of course, WoD has a good chunk of oppressiveness and all the stuff. That's absolutely a part of it, and partly why I don't like the absence of elders (and didn't like it in VtR 1e either) is that they are a strong part of it.
            Indeed, WoD has a lot of powerful beings opressing their lessers...

            ...and it's an opression you can fight against! (probably in order to become an opressor yourself)

            That's why it's Punk.

            The Elders need to be there opressing your characters in order to have something to rebel against. To generate a sense of leverage and scale as you to advance in the conspiration one circle at a time. Fighting against these hardships in an endless stair of power CAN be pretty epic...if you give your characters a chance.

            ​On the other hand, if Elders aren't there and you get to become a Prince just 'cause you're the only leech on the block with the xp...there's no conflict in that story. And even if it were conflict with similarly leveled characters, it looses a sense of "epic scale" . What's more epic: figthing against fellow vampires in the shadows (having a good chance to win) or trying (and probably failing) to rebell against a hidden conspiration of the gods of the night that reaches to the very Hells?

            Personally, I think that falling against a blood god's milenia old conspiration makes for a more epic story than winning against a peer.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CaptOtter View Post
              Both of the things you mention, actually, and third that I'll touch upon below. Before I explain myself, let me at least acknowledge it's a practical certainty that as we grew up (we started playing these games in high school and now we're all in our 30's) the game influenced how our tastes developed, such that at some point we made the transition from seeing the game as some permutation of the video games we all liked (e.g., RTS and fighting games) in which balance is very truly crucial to overall enjoyment, to more of a narrative- and drama-focused approach to the game (the game's influence being that we would come to find that enjoyable, whereas some folks just stick to mathematically even competitions of skill forever).
              (...)
              The last thing major thing that makes us like the fact that cWoD is mostly unconcerned with balance between individual powers and factions, is that there's a bevy of interestingly written powers and the like the effects and output of which are incomparable to many other abilities. The benefits of Celerity, Potence, and Fortitude are easily enough expressed and modeled in mathematical terms... but how do you model that against Shadowstep? Or Chimerstry 3? Or Obtenebration 5? How do any of these stack up level-for-level against Animalism or Dementation? Who knows. If the game developers had been overly concerned with mechanical game balance, you'd lose some of the more interesting supernatural capabilities throughout the cWoD, because you can't really balance a series of things unless you can build a model that somewhat accurately reflects the benefits of each for the purposes of comparison. And we like the oddball, useful-in-a-four-dimensional-sense sort of powers. They make the games (all the WoD games) very different from other RPG's. Werewolf is a particularly good example of a system that where some of the charm would be list if there were too much of a concern with proper mechanical balance--shifter gifts are super are all over the map. If you look at CoD (formerly nWoD), as well-balanced as it mostly is across its game lines (certainly moreso than cWoD), they had to abandon some of the more mind-bendy powers to pull off that balance.
              I always liked the specialized utility aspect of many of V:tM Discipline Powers. Makes me think how learning about and developing new capabilities matters. And also how just having the knowledge that some abilities and powers exist can help a lot and make a lot of difference for characters.
              Last edited by Muad'Dib; 02-01-2019, 05:53 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                That's why it's Punk.
                Except V5 isn't punk anymore. That aesthetic has been more less removed from setting together with the gothic aesthetic.

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                • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post

                  Except V5 isn't punk anymore. That aesthetic has been more less removed from setting together with the gothic aesthetic.

                  I wish that were the case. Maybe in Requiem, but not in Masquerade. V5 was more Goth and Punk than almost any other edition of Masquerade and it suffered for it. Maybe not aesthetically, but V5 was the most ideologically "Punk" edition of Vampire and it turned out awful.

                  But then again, I'm a known WoD iconoclast who has always detested anything remotely Goth or Punk, so take my words with a grain of salt.
                  Last edited by Camilla; 02-02-2019, 10:49 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                    V5 was the most ideologically "Punk" edition of Vampire and it turned out awful.
                    V5 was the most ideologically "Punk" edition of Vampire and it turned out wonderful. Unfortunately, a large swathe of the current Vampire fanbase doesn't really like punk.

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                    • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                      V5 was the most ideologically "Punk" edition of Vampire and it turned out wonderful. Unfortunately, a large swathe of the current Vampire fanbase doesn't really like punk.

                      Yeah, I never liked the whole punk ideology to begin with.

                      Of course, most of you fine folks already knew that.
                      Last edited by Camilla; 02-02-2019, 06:58 PM.

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                      • 'xactly.

                        'Punk' gave way to 'pulp' in the hearts of a number of gamers some time ago, and are less inclined towards games that are provocative than games that are escapist accordingly. The history of the Vampire game aesthetic seems to represent the alternative becoming mainstream to the extent that some fans don't actually like the alternative.

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                        • I'd be interested to hear what you guys think makes V5 more/less punk/goth. I'm just not that familiar with it yet but am very interested in this.

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                          • Originally posted by Murdoc View Post
                            I'd be interested to hear what you guys think makes V5 more/less punk/goth. I'm just not that familiar with it yet but am very interested in this.
                            Punk is an anti-establishment, angry, iconoclastic, sponteneous, somewhat nihilistic ethos associated mainly with a particular genre of rock music from the 1970s from bands that revelled in a DIY attitude and rebelled aggressively against the mainstream bands (and society in general), although it's form has been found throughout all sorts of mediums and acts since.

                            When Vampire first came out, it too revelled in being a 'bad boy' of the rpg medium - making a setting that incorporated real world issues that may have been considered too unpalatable in more established games. It was certainly provocative - and created a movement around itself not dissimilar to that of a new rock act with stripped down sets and a voice for the disaffected. V5 was an attempt to recreate this feel. If V20 was an attempt to 'give fans what they want', then V5 was an attempt to provoke them into feeling something more visceral again.

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                            • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                              If V20 was an attempt to 'give fans what they want', then V5 was an attempt to provoke them into feeling something more visceral again.
                              Does 'apathy' count as visceral? that's... really all V5's led me to feel so far.

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                              • V5 is to me very slick, very corporate. It's not even trying to be punk... maybe that was the intention of the designers, but I don't feel it. They took away most of the elders, so Neonates can now achieve something without compromising the integrity of the setting, leaves you with nothing to rebel about. Including a couple of real world issues is also not "punk".

                                Don't get me wrong, I like V5 mechanically, and presentationally. And I am glad the punk is gone.

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