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Modiphius taking over Vampire: The Masquerade

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  • Meh, punk is overrated both in terms of ideology and music.

    Metal is where it's at.

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    • Originally posted by Ideon View Post
      Does 'apathy' count as visceral? that's... really all V5's led me to feel so far.
      How did you muster the energy to write this post then?

      Comment


      • V5 is more Hipster Derelicte, at least visually.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
          V5 is to me very slick, very corporate. It's not even trying to be punk... maybe that was the intention of the designers, but I don't feel it. They took away most of the elders, so Neonates can now achieve something without compromising the integrity of the setting, leaves you with nothing to rebel about. Including a couple of real world issues is also not "punk".

          Don't get me wrong, I like V5 mechanically, and presentationally. And I am glad the punk is gone.
          There is plenty to rebel about in the game, with the references ro real world issues giving you material to use. The development of Hunger dice and the themes accentuated within the game presents players with the notion of being monstrous in an antisocial way, while it's not true to say the Elders are all gone - just they aren't readiliy available to play. As such, the elders make primary antagonists. An increased emphasis on the Anarchs in the game clearly evident too. V5 is very much intending to be punk - quite overtly so, in the art, statements in the writing and general tone. One cannot account for how individuals in the audience feels about it, though.

          Originally posted by jamiemalk
          V5 is more Hipster Derelicte, at least visually.
          The same sort of accusation was made against people in the original punk movement of the 1970s.
          Last edited by Trippy; 02-03-2019, 02:31 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Aleph View Post


            Indeed, WoD has a lot of powerful beings opressing their lessers...

            ...and it's an opression you can fight against! (probably in order to become an opressor yourself)

            That's why it's Punk.

            The Elders need to be there opressing your characters in order to have something to rebel against. To generate a sense of leverage and scale as you to advance in the conspiration one circle at a time. Fighting against these hardships in an endless stair of power CAN be pretty epic...if you give your characters a chance.

            ​On the other hand, if Elders aren't there and you get to become a Prince just 'cause you're the only leech on the block with the xp...there's no conflict in that story. And even if it were conflict with similarly leveled characters, it looses a sense of "epic scale" . What's more epic: figthing against fellow vampires in the shadows (having a good chance to win) or trying (and probably failing) to rebell against a hidden conspiration of the gods of the night that reaches to the very Hells?

            Personally, I think that falling against a blood god's milenia old conspiration makes for a more epic story than winning against a peer.
            Absolutely agree.

            Let me just say, the presence of those elder powers is actually a main allure of vampiric stories for me and always been. Without elders, a vampire-centered setting and story just falls flat for me. It could be because the marching of ages and the descent into being less and less human thing always captured my imagination a lot more than the sexualized predator thing. You know, whenever I read Strahd's iconic quote "I'm the Ancient, I'm the Land", it still sends shivers down my spine.

            So, while I get all the arguments for "opening up the setting" and "giving opportunities to the player characters" and all that, it makes a vampire-centered game hollow for me.

            Also, yes, unraveling those ancient conspiracies and digging up the secrets of ages and changing systems (and yes, even physically fighting those eldritch monsters) that were in place for hundreds of years, even if only in your city is just a lot more epic than being the baddest neonate on the block.

            I have nothing against "here and now", street level, young vampire stories. I enjoy them a lot, but again, a vampire-centered setting, in my eyes needs to have the epic elements and it needs them to be there.


            If nothing worked, then let's think!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post

              Except V5 isn't punk anymore. That aesthetic has been more less removed from setting together with the gothic aesthetic.
              They even said in an interview that "gothic-punk is dead" and it's "neo-noir" or whatever now. The book doesn't use the old label. The gothic aesthetics are gone, a good chunk of the more gothic and punk themes and elements are gone.

              And it's a damn shame. It effectively killed the game for me.


              If nothing worked, then let's think!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                V5 was the most ideologically "Punk" edition of Vampire and it turned out wonderful. Unfortunately, a large swathe of the current Vampire fanbase doesn't really like punk.
                You're confluting punk with revolutionary. There's a correlation, but it's not the same.

                Rebelling against the system has a lot less impact, when the system is crumbling to dust, lost most of it's power and glory and you hold just as much power and territory as it does. Sorry, but including contemporary leftist talking points and narrative into the book doesn't make the material "punk". If anything it reflects the same contemporary political movements, thoughts and attitudes, but not punk.

                V5 might be a lot of things, but it's neither gothic, nor punk.

                Last edited by PMárk; 02-03-2019, 08:05 PM.


                If nothing worked, then let's think!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                  If V20 was an attempt to 'give fans what they want', then V5 was an attempt to provoke them into feeling something more visceral again.
                  People just happen to buy what they want. Crazy , right?

                  Honestly this is basic marketing but after the succes of Beckett Jyhad diary and V20 with people telling your company that they want more content and elders doing world shaking stuff you just dont realease a core with less content that removes elders and imposes a restrictive gameplay.

                  If you want to do something so different as V5 that it is not the punk masquerade we love but a "neo noir" vampire game you cannot sell it as a new edition of the masquerade TM.What you do it is know as branching something that could have been done by selling this as an alternate campaign setting , a suplement or a whole new different vampire game , that way you have a chance of growing your market whitout risking your main brand and reputation becuase this is the ultimate sin in a bussiness.Sadly NEW white wolf decided to comitt it and now they not only are testimonial but V5 has become a grenade without pin.
                  Last edited by Leandro16; 02-03-2019, 09:08 PM.


                  Hunger pool

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                    You're confluting punk with revolutionary. There's a correlation, but it's not the same.

                    Rebelling against the system has a lot less impact, when the system is crumbling to dust, lost most of it's power and glory and you hold just as much power and territory as it does. Sorry, but including contemporary leftist talking points and narrative into the book doesn't make the material "punk". If anything it reflects the same contemporary political movements, thoughts and attitudes, but not punk.

                    V5 might be a lot of things, but it's neither gothic, nor punk.
                    Well, your confusing your own opinion with fact. You seem to be telling everybody what you think punk isn't without actually presenting anything about what punk is. V5 may be a lot of things, but it is definitely punk and gothic in it's stated intent. Whether you like it or not is your own business.


                    “A guy walks up to me and asks ‘What’s Punk?’ So I kick over a garbage can and say ‘That’s punk!’ So he kicks over a garbage can and says ‘That’s punk?’ and I say ‘No, that’s trendy!'”
                    Billie Joe Armstrong
                    Last edited by Trippy; 02-04-2019, 04:12 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                      People just happen to buy what they want. Crazy , right?
                      Well, don't play it then. The revolving arguments you're presenting are pretty meaningless to me at this point though. V5 happened, and is apparently continuing with or without your approval.

                      Someone wanted to explore the punk aspect of V5 here, and so that is all I'm really interested in discussing.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                        “A guy walks up to me and asks ‘What’s Punk?’ So I kick over a garbage can and say ‘That’s punk!’ So he kicks over a garbage can and says ‘That’s punk?’ and I say ‘No, that’s trendy!'”
                        There's punk stuff in V5, but it feels cheapened. Trendy, if you want.

                        There is plenty to rebel about in the game, with the references ro real world issues giving you material to use.
                        It has "references to real world" alright, like WoD usually does. Vampires other than Brujah aren't shown as particularly caring about that. Nothing has changed in that regards.

                        ...while it's not true to say the Elders are all gone - just they aren't readiliy available to play. As such, the elders make primary antagonists.
                        "Elders are being called and is good that they're gone" coupled with "while it's not true to say the Elders are all gone...As such, the elders make primary antagonists".

                        It's bad faith: If the intention was to make elders to be "primary antagonists", then why do they insisted in breaking their power in the first place (destroying important elders, stating that there's a power sending them away) Lots of trying to befriend god and the devil here.

                        An increased emphasis on the Anarchs in the game clearly evident too.
                        Yet another reason of why a weakened Camarilla with (most?) Elders gone was a bad idea. It's like they're trying to make punk easier for you. It gives me a "Now that WE removed the opposition for you (sent it to middle east, unless you don't want to) you can rebell successfully" vive.

                        The development of Hunger dice and the themes accentuated within the game presents players with the notion of being monstrous in an antisocial way
                        ...which it's presented as a tragedy and not as something to be remotely proud off in the way your punk authority treats it. There's no Vampire version less antisocial than V5 with it's enforced NPC mechanic (the touchstones) making sure that you get punished if you're too antisocial.

                        V5 is very much intending to be punk - quite overtly so, in the art, statements in the writing and general tone.
                        Man, the ART. Crazy and haunting drawings was what brought a lot of the fanbase to the first editions of Vampire. Revised already took a setback, making pictures a lot more realistic and boring. V20 went downhill with it's pictures. And now, following the trend, all we have it's a set of cosplay pictures.

                        I can remember rules and fluff, but I can't remember a single drawing or picture of the book that remotely caught my attention. I'm mourning the art of WoD since V20, so it's nothing new, but it's not something that I would mention to defend V5

                        Statements I have yet to see. I think the general tone it's, indeed, trying to be punk. But the art with its blandness is the gothic-punk version of elevator music.
                        Last edited by Aleph; 02-04-2019, 11:07 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                          People just happen to buy what they want. Crazy , right?

                          Honestly this is basic marketing but after the succes of Beckett Jyhad diary and V20 with people telling your company that they want more content and elders doing world shaking stuff you just dont realease a core with less content that removes elders and imposes a restrictive gameplay.

                          If you want to do something so different as V5 that it is not the punk masquerade we love but a "neo noir" vampire game you cannot sell it as a new edition of the masquerade TM.What you do it is know as branching something that could have been done by selling this as an alternate campaign setting , a suplement or a whole new different vampire game , that way you have a chance of growing your market whitout risking your main brand and reputation becuase this is the ultimate sin in a bussiness.Sadly NEW white wolf decided to comitt it and now they not only are testimonial but V5 has become a grenade without pin.
                          Precisely.

                          There isn't much (or really any) shittalking about VtR 2e. Or Night's Black Agents, in VtM circles, the way it was with VtR 1e and now V5. Strange, isn't it?




                          If nothing worked, then let's think!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                            There's punk stuff in V5, but it feels cheapened. Trendy, if you want.



                            It has "references to real world" alright, like WoD usually does. Vampires other than Brujah aren't shown as particularly caring about that. Nothing has changed in that regards.



                            "Elders are being called and is good that they're gone" coupled with "while it's not true to say the Elders are all gone...As such, the elders make primary antagonists".

                            It's bad faith: If the intention was to make elders to be "primary antagonists", then why do they insisted in breaking their power in the first place (destroying important elders, stating that there's a power sending them away) Lots of trying to befriend god and the devil here.



                            Yet another reason of why a weakened Camarilla with (most?) Elders gone was a bad idea. It's like they're trying to make punk easier for you. It gives me a "Now that WE removed the opposition for you (sent it to middle east, unless you don't want to) you can rebell successfully" vive.



                            ...which it's presented as a tragedy and not as something to be remotely proud off in the way your punk authority treats it. There's no Vampire version less antisocial than V5 with it's enforced NPC mechanic (the touchstones) making sure that you get punished if you're too antisocial.



                            Man, the ART. Crazy and haunting drawings was what brought a lot of the fanbase to the first editions of Vampire. Revised already took a setback, making pictures a lot more realistic and boring. V20 went downhill with it's pictures. And now, following the trend, all we have it's a set of cosplay pictures.

                            I can remember rules and fluff, but I can't remember a single drawing or picture of the book that remotely caught my attention. I'm mourning the art of WoD since V20, so it's nothing new, but it's not something that I would mention to defend V5

                            Statements I have yet to see. I think the general tone it's, indeed, trying to be punk. But the art with its blandness is the gothic-punk version of elevator music.

                            Thank you for writing it down, so I don't need to!

                            When the creative director says "gothic punk is dead" and the book willingly ommits it, arguing that this is the most punk edition and that it's still gothic is a bit forced, but that's just my oppinion.

                            Also agree with the artworks part on V20 and V5, though I started with revised and liked the visuals a lot and didn't felt much difference to the earlier books I've seen later on. It just sank its claws into me and never let go. V20 went mostly "meh". Though there were good pictures in the books, the overall feel just wasn't there. V5, I get what they were aiming for, but it's just not for me and it's absolutely not VtM for me.




                            If nothing worked, then let's think!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                              Well, your confusing your own opinion with fact.
                              Pot, kettle.

                              You seem to be telling everybody what you think punk isn't without actually presenting anything about what punk is.
                              Oh, come on, even punks can't agree about what punk IS. Though, however you see it, it's fundamentals lay in rebelling against the system and doing you own thing, saying "fuck you" to "polite society and carving out your own niche. It doesn need the framework of a system to have any meaning.

                              As Aleph said very aptly, V5 is aking punk easy. It's like when rebellion turned into a full-blown revolution and won at least partly and that makes it not-punk. Raging against the machine doesn't make lot of sense when you are just as much the machine and the machine you're raging against is in the midst of falling apart and the core which gave its power is gone.

                              Also, again, including real-world talking points from the political left isn't making it punk. Yes, it has punk elements, true, but it's a lot less punk as a whole, than earlier editions and a lot more "fuckyeah wer are the revolution and we're winning".


                              V5 may be a lot of things, but it is definitely punk and gothic in it's stated intent. Whether you like it or not is your own business.
                              Yes, it has punk elements, I give you that, true, but it's a lot less punk as a whole, than earlier editions and a lot more "fuckyeah wer are the revolution and we're winning". It's a lot more like contemporary mainstream political activism thinking it's oh-so punk.

                              It's definitely not gothic. Not in themes, not in visual representation. Whether you acknowledge that or not is your own business, I'm content with agree to disagree.


                              “A guy walks up to me and asks ‘What’s Punk?’ So I kick over a garbage can and say ‘That’s punk!’ So he kicks over a garbage can and says ‘That’s punk?’ and I say ‘No, that’s trendy!'”
                              Billie Joe Armstrong
                              Everybody knows that adage and it's not relevant here. It's even debated a lot, since it makes everything outside the original, first punks not-punk. By this argument, the only thing that makes V5 punk is that it went against what was established as VtM, not because its punk-themes are more strong and prevalent.


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

                              Comment


                              • Personally, I always found punk (as most people understand it to be) to be little more than a pretentious dead horse. V5 was too "punk" for its own good and look how it turned out!

                                Vampire needs to divorce itself from the metaplot and personal horror, and chuck the whole "Gothic-Punk" nonsense directly into the dustbin of history where it firmly belongs.
                                Last edited by Camilla; 02-04-2019, 04:43 PM.

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