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  • Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    I believe it was clearly the setting, with all its bells and whistles and warts too.

    I don't think it was nostalgia alone, what led to the rejection of NWoD for many. It was a factor for some, sure, as well as convenience, habit and such. But it was quality too. Not in the sense of which is better (I don't think either is), but which is more to the individual's taste. For me, it surely wasn't nostalgia, I didn't play this game in the back rooms of goth clubs during the '90s, I was in kindergarten/elementary school at that time. I startted to play it during the early 2000's, at the last minutes of it.
    (...)
    I remember being a young kid ( around ten years old ) and reading a walkthrough of “Vampire: the Masquerade – Redemption” in a PC games magazine. It described the section with the temple of the Followers of Set, and I was confused at the association of a group of Vampires with snakes. Now of course it makes sense, it is the Setites, after all.
    The fact that that the game starts in the Medieval period and later has the same character waking up during the modern nights made a very strong positive impression on me back then.

    I wish so much that another V:tM PC game would be made. Considering how smaller and independent PC game developers have had a lot of success in the recent years, it might be that, during the next decade or so, some persons might make one ( or multiple ones ) as a non-profit project.

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    • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
      Lets Agree to disagree

      I am happy that you love V5 so much but the reality is that the edition is a neo noir grenade whitout a pin.
      Your chosen metaphor is literal reality?! Crikey.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Aleph View Post


        If it was rumor rather than a rule (with exceptions) that was also written OOC as an important aspect of the setting (Ancilla taking positions of power as the Camarilla becomes more insular), and then latter relativized for convenience (Chicago), I would accept that.

        The way it was presented it's truly like the Avatar Storm.

        Mage: Revised also had mages traveling to the Umbra (a whole book with "loopholes" in the Storm) and Archmasters reappearing like daisies (Ascension), but at that point everyone had already received the memo that Umbra was wrongbadfun (Core and ST:Handbook) and the harm was done. A lot of the books in which "rumours of the elimitation of mage presencie in the Umbra have been greatly exaggerated" never made to print in my language.
        The Avatar Storm, from memory actually accounted for a single line in a single rote in the MRev core book. The major metaplot detail actually came in a previous supplement - Masters of the Arts, I think. In a sense, yes, it did the same job as finding a way to prune away the Masters (like the Elders) for thematic reasons. It was also contradicted in later Mage supplements. Indeed, the Mage metaplot carried on developing to where we are today. My view, is there really isn't any reason why people need to be constrained by metaplot in their own games anyway - if you want the revalation of more Elders emerging in your story, then do it. The only real restriction in the V5 corebook alone is that there isn't rules for players to become elders. There wasn't in V1 or V2 either.


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        • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
          Just on this point again. The Elders aren't gone in V5, they're just not playable and de-emphasised to make them more mysterious again. Ditto Sabbat. The metaplot elements, which are frequently told through the medium of an unreliable narrator incidentally, are just tools with which the game has been tightened in terms of narrative focus. The game wants you to focus on relatively high generation vampires so that particular themes can be accentuated again in play. Contrasted to V20, for example, where Elders and Sabbat are literally just another type of character to play. When they say they want Sabbat, and Elders too to a degree, to be 'bogeymen' it's because they want to make that aspect of the game scarier again.


          As has been mentioned several times, yes technically you are right. There are still some elders left. Most, however, have left. That's stated by the unreliable narrator, canon and the rules themselves that do not support elders well. But you've missed the point. Back in V1 I believe the analogy was given of an office building. The PCs were meant to be mail deliverers in this massive office building with desires to become successful. However, in the ranks above them, no one retires, no one dies and no one transfers out. So the players are stuck. In order to achieve any greatness in this building they will have to be clever and use guile, deciet and whatever other means they have available to make their way up. In V5 this analogy doesn't work well, if at all because the top is gone for the most part. Any coterie can bumrush an elder and its finished.

          Now some may enjoy that, and thats fantastic. Some don't and that's ok as well. In my experience running V5 its proven to be a challenge to run that type of hyper political game that I am accustomed to. The system simply isn't designed for it. Now all that being said, CbN3 has done a wonderful job crossing that bridge and trying to make it work (different writers, different company) and I'm very pleased with that product and I look forward to using it in my current game. But as it's been stated a number of times, the ruleset in V5 has all but eliminated elders from the game, as well as the Sabbat (though I expect we will see a book about them sometime in the future so they don't really count). Now as to what they do about that (there have been rumblings to an IG explanation) remains to be seen. If people care to remember, 1st ed Vampire had the same problem but later added a book (or upgraded to 2nd ed...forgive me, I'm ill and a bit off my game) with additional rules etc for elders for play and more importantly for STs to use to stat up antagonists. Will we see the same here? Time will tell. Though Mr Dawkins at one point somewhere did state that the new mechanics don't lend themselves well to stats over 5 in playtests.

          So yes, technically you are right. Every single elder is not gone. But the vast majority are. Thats an undeniable fact. Which leaves V5 a totally different tone. Gone is the punk that we knew and ushers in a new era. Is this bad? No. Not at all. But it does affect how some of us who have played the game for 20+ years run our stories in this new system.


          Currently running: Gary/Chicago By Night

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          • Originally posted by Schwartzung View Post

            Fair point and I stand corrected. I'm one of those old fogies as well. Maybe thats why it felt disjointed then? Older people trying to imitate the new generation?[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
            That could be a thing, yes.

            Also, I'm frequently getting a vibe that the writers are among the fans, who are just got bored and/or had problems with the game and setting as it was.



            Absolutely, but the game was sold and based on Cam vs Anarch. Cam vs Sabbat. So on and so forth. Many people have said that they enjoyed the Sabbat as boogymen which definitely lends itself to "us vs them".
            Yes, but it softened up a lot, as the Sabbat became playable, I think.


            The whole priviliged elite vs the people doesn't hit with me. What elite? The elders are gone. It feels like they want the Anarchs to be the big sect now but they never struck a chord with me.
            In short, my view on this is like: in earlier editions, the Anarchs were part of the Cam, at least nominally, in most places. That made a possible more nuanced social dynamics, because they were against the system, but still somewhat a part of the system. Now, it's a clear distinction between the privileged, exclusive elite (the Cam) and the "People of the Streets" and their mass rebellion against the former. It's an open war, a lot less nuanced and a lot more us vs. them, while back then it was a lot more muddy. It's not a complicated class issue within society, but two warring sides.


            That was kind of the point I was trying to make. Cosplay is considered to be art now and thats absolutely fine, but it didn't hit the mark for me. I expect more. But that being said, to a younger person, the cosplay they used is attainable. Doable at home ergo attractive.
            Ah, okay, I understand. Well, I also think what you decribe as more relatable for young cosplayers is more how the By Night LARP books had their illustrations. V5 is a lot more studio-like, I think, but as studio work, it just doesn't do it for me, largely.



            Thats the thing. It wasn't intended to be marketed to us. They didn't have to. They had us the second they said V5. After buying it some people didn't like it and were vocal (and I suspect that they didn't expect the rollout to be this rough)
            Well, the thought process could have gone like that, but if yes, I'd say it's a tad arrogant, to think every "old" fan would take anything, just because of the label. Sure, a lot of them would buy the core, initially, just out of curiosity (as it happened back then with VtR 1e), but it's not long-term. Also, it's practically a deliberate blindside to the experiences of the industry druing the last 15 years or so.


            [COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=13px]

            Gothic-punk is dead. A lot of my work has me working in that subculture and its dead as fuck. Club nights with 40 people attending. Stale music. Average age on the dancefloor is roughly 40 (varies city by city) so on and so forth.
            It's not as mainstream as it was back then, when VtM came out, sure, but

            But there is a new breed that is rising from the ashes albeit ever so slowly. Look at the rise of synth-wave movies, music, tv and style. Thats capturing the kids now. And from that punk and goth is stirring as well. There is a new generation, but it's not quite here yet.
            Admittedly, I'm not a part of any subculture and never considered myself as one. Nevertheless, I like things from several of them and they interest me, in general and in particular. What I see, as an outsider, who never attended the club scene (and I don't even think there was a "proper" goth/punk scene in Hungary anyway, just a general metal/dark "scene", as it tends to be in many smaller countries) is that yes, the oldschool club-scene style stuff is struggling, but the subcultures hold a lot of interest for young people, they just express it in different ways (and it's also not that well-defined, which drives older bats crazy). So I could agree with you (if I get the gist of what you're saying right) that it's in the middle of a generational change. There's also a lot of new music too, I think.

            Also, you might be onto something with the synth-wave. Just yesterday Iwas watching the new Titans series and this discussion came to my mind, as it had a quite WoD-ish feeling to it, IMO, but the music was quite syth-wave-y.



            Thats an interesting experiment you did. I would hazard to say with my limited expertise that the book was going for a synth-wave theme more like Stranger Things. Look at the colors - black and pink/purple.
            Ugh, don't remind me... Also, the abundance of empty white space... Really, the first impression i got is that the book is too bright. The cover... Eh.

            Honestly, the new CBN illustrations are already looking a lot better, though I still liked the old books a lot more, visually. V5 just doesn't do it for me.

            The styles in the book.
            Though, truth be told, I didn't even get a synth-wave nostalgia feel from it (though I could give you the color scheme to an extent). Mostly, I got a vaguely "modernist" angle. Very clear, very crisp and clean, very bright and airy. I'd even say it might appeal a lot more to aging hipsters, who went to work in IT and with corporations than to the new "darkly inclined" generation, but that's just a hitch.

            Hell even the term they are using now....what is it again? Neon-dark or some shit? Thats Synthwave as hell.
            The book doesn't use anything, just leaves out gothic-punk. Jason Carl, I think, said in an interview, that they'd call it "neo-noir" if pressured. I think that's not really synth-wave, but more like this modernist, "here and now" and "realistic" city-centered stuff. You know, people living in the cities, doing their day-to-day life, somewhat on the dark side of society, occasionally drinking blood, with a familiar background. I don't think it's stylized enough to be synth-wave, which I think is a lot more extreme.


            Take a listen to this and convince me that this isn't what is playing in the Succubus Club now! (Perturbator - Humans Are Such Easy Prey) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8DekFFCE5c
            Oh, that's very good, thank you! I could totally imagine that, just as you sa, but I'd say it'd be mixed with stuff like the iconic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoUCyrg5Syo .

            I think this crowd is who they are marketing to which is a very smart move in the short term. These are definitely role playing kids looking for something dark. And boy there's a lot of them.
            I'd say it's quite mixed, even if we're going just by the musical stuff. New stuff, old stuff, new, but retro-stuff. Young people consume it all, with enthusiasm. It happened with me literally two months back, that I worked at a warehouse, and there was a 17 year old girl, who saw my, ahhem, vintage hoodie and instantly got excitd about how much she likes the band it displayed. I was surprised as hell, because I listened to that band a lot back then when I was her age, but it wasn't new even then, as it started during the very early '90s.

            A quite good example, I think is the Only Lovers Left Alive OST. I like that movie a LOT. The OST has a lot of styles, from electronic-based to guitar to lute to Middle-Eastern singing and it's still coherent and one of the most WoD-ish albums I've ever heard. The movie conveyed the same feel to me visually. It wasn't like The Crow, for example, but gave off a rather strong visual impression, which felt WoD to me.

            Also, all this talk about the musical connections reminds me how I was baffled that from the 3 new books, neither contained any musical recommendations the wat the old books always did. That's a HUGE ball being dropped, in my eyes.

            I think this crowd is who they are marketing to which is a very smart move in the short term. These are definitely role playing kids looking for something dark. And boy there's a lot of them.
            Absolutely, but I'm not that convinced at this point that it does that really well and tangentially, my firm oppinion is that the V5 corebook is jsut not a good corebook, in terms of explaining the setting and the game to a new player. It's rather strange, the abundance of changes says it was aimed at new players, but all 3 books were written in a way that youn won't understand even half of it, if you didn't know the setting prior.. As I see, it's quite strange, but it's mostly people who are, just like the writers, were old fans, but either abandoned the game a long time ago, or not, but longed for something new and "fresh", who are praising it, mostly. But I'll admitt, I see just a narrow slice of what's happening, so time will tell.


            Anyhow, this was/is an interesting discussion, thank you!
            Last edited by PMárk; 02-06-2019, 06:29 PM.


            If nothing worked, then let's think!

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            • Originally posted by Schwartzung View Post
              So yes, technically you are right. Every single elder is not gone. But the vast majority are. Thats an undeniable fact. Which leaves V5 a totally different tone. Gone is the punk that we knew and ushers in a new era. Is this bad? No. Not at all. But it does affect how some of us who have played the game for 20+ years run our stories in this new system.
              All I'm really saying to this point is: don't let the metaplot of the game dictate how you run your own stories. This is not trying to dismiss your concerns, but rather emphasise that, plotwise, you don't need to have any constraints. For me, clandestine Elders are ephemeral but still a presence, as is the Sabbat (like bogeymen really) and new PC vampires still have to work around the protocol and heirarchy set up in their local vampire society. V5 sets up games from a localised, more personal level - the lower powered restrictions take away the more operatic 'epic' panoramic elements. However, this doesn't to me impinge upon any punk themes at all - it just makes the conflicts more localised.

              Moreover, V5 will more than likely become expanded upon in supplements where both The Sabbat and Elders become detailed and, notably, they have already mooted the release of the Player's Guide which will give more stop to individual STs to adapt them game and setting in their own way. Let's wait and see how they develop it, I guess.
              Last edited by Trippy; 02-05-2019, 06:34 PM.

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              • Originally posted by Schwartzung View Post

                Gone is the punk that we knew and ushers in a new era. Is this bad? No. Not at all.
                I'd say "bad" in this instance is up to the person. VtR 1e did away with elders too and that was one of the points a lot of people got disappointed in it and in general, that it didn't support the same kind of stories VtM did. Was that bad? Not for the people who liked the new stuff and preferred the stories it lend itself to.

                It's a change. Change isn't good or bad. It depends on your expectations about the game. Though, with all that said, it might be a bad business decision, if enough of the estimated buyers decide the final product doesn1t match their expectations.



                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                  VtR 1e did away with
                  They did away with one kind of elders. The Fog of Eternity robbed them of their certain memories, and also reduced their powers. That forced cyclical change. Something that got lost in transition to VtR2.

                  Dawkins said that the elders now also can be more powerful, but the disciplines and traits are limited to 5 dots. But it has been implied that elders can possess more powers per discipline level.

                  I could easily imagine that each dot of blood Potency above 5 allows you to purchase one more power in each discipline - no matter which level. A lot of the former level 6 powers have been rolled down into level 5.

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                  • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                    In short, my view on this is like: in earlier editions, the Anarchs were part of the Cam, at least nominally, in most places. That made a possible more nuanced social dynamics, because they were against the system, but still somewhat a part of the system. Now, it's a clear distinction between the privileged, exclusive elite (the Cam) and the "People of the Streets" and their mass rebellion against the former. It's an open war, a lot less nuanced and a lot more us vs. them, while back then it was a lot more muddy. It's not a complicated class issue within society, but two warring sides.
                    And in V5 there is no more of the "Each - well, nearly each - Vampire can find a place in the Camarilla." attitude and approach. Even if this ideal isn't followed at all times, it is still a trait of this Sect that is very distinct.

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                    • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
                      They did away with one kind of elders. The Fog of Eternity robbed them of their certain memories, and also reduced their powers. That forced cyclical change. Something that got lost in transition to VtR2.
                      The Fog of Ages was a very bad mechanic becuase it limited a lot the chronicles by eliminating one of the elders central themes:The eternal struggle between elders that cannot forget their rivalries and grivances so VtR 2ED did well eliminating it.However I must admit that as a RARE FLAW the fog eternity is very interesting and can work as a plot hook EX:The elder of this domain has awakened beliving to be an ancillae but conservating all his unholy power ¿Will you take advantaje? or ¿will you help him? but more important ¿Will he regain his memories and take revenge on those who took profit of him?.

                      Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
                      Dawkins said that the elders now also can be more powerful, but the disciplines and traits are limited to 5 dots. But it has been implied that elders can possess more powers per discipline level.

                      I could easily imagine that each dot of blood Potency above 5 allows you to purchase one more power in each discipline - no matter which level. A lot of the former level 6 powers have been rolled down into level 5.
                      This is another problem of V5 as it is designed to ONLY support a tier 1 gamestyle with it´s why the hunger system just doesnt work if you use attributes above 5.This is bad game design becuase the system isnt flexible and becuase what the great majority of the fanbase play are Tier 2 and Tier 3 games so again from marketing standpoint V5 was a horrible mistake.If they wanted to implement an Hunger System they should have done it in a section of optional rules for Tier 1 games and they got more than enought space for that becuase V5 has more than 400 pages that somehow manage to say almost nothing (Nobodu cares about kindred fashion or nordic gothic).

                      The Players guide seems to be triying to solve this problem but the thing is that people don´t have too much hope after all that brand damage that the masquerade suffered from V5 and the fact that just making it allow other play-styles isnt enought becuase V20 and even Revised will still be there and have WAY MORE CONTENT THAN V5.So this new Players Guide needs to be an V5.5 and incorporate a lot of content to at least match the previous product (All the clans , Sects and reckon the Beckoning).But if the players guide fails to become an V5.5 it will only be another dead weight on V5 as this new edition with 3 book already on sale cost Around 150$ without taking transport in account and still doesnt matches even the 10% of content that V20 (20 Euros and avalible at stores) has.

                      PD:My thanks to however posted about Big Eyes Small Mouth , what a beutiful game i have discoverd Chew!
                      Last edited by Leandro16; 02-06-2019, 07:21 AM.


                      Hunger pool

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                      • Leandro16 You are assuming an awful lot with with all that "majority of fan base", "V5 was a horrible mistake", and talk about another book "failing". V5 is so far not a failure. It has sold lots of units. 2500 bundles is nothing to sneaze at, and we know next to nothing about the sales performance of the physical core rulebook, the virtual one is a Gold seller on DriveThru, which is about another 1,000 sold. That doesn't look like a failing game, looks like a game doing okay. Not the huge success back from the 90ies. LA by Night has a huge following (well over 10,000 views per episode on Twitch).

                        Also V20 may be available for 20 USD in stores in your country, it isn't in mine. The hardcver is available, but costs upward of 80 USD. Also, V20 suffers from a badly designed game system by todays standards, from a 20 years old game system, and from not being an ideal introduction to role-playing Masquerade. If you want to learn to play Masquerade with V20 you need someone to show you what to do with the game.

                        V5 has a very spacious layout, but explains a lot better what the game is about than previous editions. By the way, it also supports Tier 2 play very well. I am using the game to play Tier 2, and it works. Only Tier 3 might be an issue at the moment. But even that is do-able. Vampire was never about kewl powers, but about strong social interactions between PCs and SPCs.

                        The missing three clans will be along in time. In fact, the 11th Clan (Hecata) has already been announced. And yes, a 30th anniversary editon of V5 with all clans would be nice. But not necessary. In the past, I've limited players to the core 7 anyway.

                        But honestly, I've written already too much on this topic again. I am tired of this. I just want to enjoy and play V5.

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                        • Murder-of-Crows Of course it has sales It´s the freaking masquerade the IP is just too big to fall , that´s why average sales are the worse from marketing perspective and that´s why everyone it´s so frustrated becuase V5 "had" a lot of potential.Without profundizating so much this fragmentation of content is just a barrier of entry and a competitive disavantage against the other editions.

                          PD:I may dislike V5 (what a surpise) but I hope those who like it get a lot of fun and heck even if I don´t have too much hopes i wish that the players guide fixes all the edition.Nice talk.
                          Last edited by Leandro16; 02-06-2019, 04:27 PM.


                          Hunger pool

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                          • All I can say is that I am currently running V5 with a group consisting of almost all storytellers aged 30+ who swear by 2nd ed and with our playthough V5 is growing on us. Yes there are some problems but all relatively minor. We've made some adjustments (I took out thinbloods and blood resonance) but otherwise the game is actually quite good (to our surprise). But we're still experimenting with it and discovering new things. As an ST, since I'm running Chicago from beginning to current I've had to make some allowances but all in all I think anyone who hates it should try it for a month or two. You may be just as surprised as we are.


                            Currently running: Gary/Chicago By Night

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                            • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
                              Leandro16

                              V5 has a very spacious layout, but explains a lot better what the game is about than previous editions.
                              This made my day.

                              To me, it spends a lot of space on purple prose-ing about the hunger and "in-character everyday life" stuff, but explains the setting horribly for a new gamer, in comparison to Revised. That'ws an awfully narrow view on what the game is "about".


                              I'd wait about declaring anything about the game's success. It's VtM, it's a new edition out in the stores, of course the core sold well. The VtR core sold well too, because people were curious, but for a quite big chunk of the fans, that was the first and last buy of anything NWoD.

                              As I've said a few pages back, if Modiphius doubles down on V5's initial direction and a steady stream of books are coming out and are selling well and the game looks healthy on the long run, then I'll reconsider my stance on how well it was received. At this point, it's divisive and cotnroversial in my eyes and I think Modiphius will try to readjust it.


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                              • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                                The Fog of Ages was a very bad mechanic becuase it limited a lot the chronicles by eliminating one of the elders central themes:The eternal struggle between elders that cannot forget their rivalries and grivances so VtR 2ED did well eliminating it.However I must admit that as a RARE FLAW the fog eternity is very interesting and can work as a plot hook EX:The elder of this domain has awakened beliving to be an ancillae but conservating all his unholy power ¿Will you take advantaje? or ¿will you help him? but more important ¿Will he regain his memories and take revenge on those who took profit of him?.
                                In that sense, it's quite similar to Touchstones. Nothing is wrong with these concepts, on the contrary, they are quite good, but implemented as core mechanics, they became restrictive.



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