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Modiphius taking over Vampire: The Masquerade

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  • Originally posted by PMárk View Post
    To me, it spends a lot of space on purple prose-ing about the hunger and "in-character everyday life" stuff, but explains the setting horribly for a new gamer, in comparison to Revised. That'ws an awfully narrow view on what the game is "about".
    Just out of curiosity: did you read the chapters on building a city, building a chronicle? There is stuff in there that was never spelled out in any of the core from V1 to V20, including both Requiem corebooks. It's actual advice to the storyteller on how to build the setting, how to build a chronicle. The stuff in there isn't new to me, but I had to figure it out the hard way by looking at supplements, reading citybooks, going through Damnation City. Now that essential stuff is finally part of the core.

    V20 was mostly a copy-paste job for the storytellers and rules chapters. Everything else was crammed in: all the clans, all the bloodline, all the disciplines, most of the blood sorcery paths. But nothing in the book actually told you what to do with them.

    Also, the day to day stuff in the being of the V5 book is important to draw new players in. It reminded me a lot of Changeling: The Dreaming 1st Edition (one of the most visually striking of the old heydays). Before you get to the rules you already have a pretty good picture about what being a Kindred in the 21st century means, Incidentally, that's something completely different from being a Kindred at the end of the 20th century.

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    • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
      And yes, a 30th anniversary editon of V5 with all clans would be nice.
      After reading this I thought about V5 getting it's own 30th anniversary edition in three decades from now. Even though I know this won't happen, I still dread this possibility, to say the least.

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      • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post
        Vampire was never about kewl powers, but about strong social interactions between PCs and SPCs.
        Speak for yourself! I want kewl powrz! *cough*

        Sorry, the Ventrue made me do it.

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        • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          After reading this I thought about V5 getting it's own 30th anniversary edition in three decades from now. Even though I know this won't happen, I still dread this possibility, to say the least.
          I don't think an edition will remain current for 30 years... Even D&D had at most 10-11 years per edition.

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          • Originally posted by Murder-of-Crows View Post

            I don't think an edition will remain current for 30 years... Even D&D had at most 10-11 years per edition.
            A particular Edition does not have to be the current one for there to be an Anniversary Edition based on it.

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            • All this assumes that there will be any new editions of course - there are no plans by anybody at this time.

              Any anniversary of Vampire: The Masquerade can only nominally be based off the 1st edition release date, although, to be fair V20 had more in common with Vampire Revised, in terms of style and development, than earlier editions.

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              • They can base it off the 1991 release date, but the rulesset could literally be anything (up to and including a re-print of the 1991 edition). V20 was a "love-letter"-edition taking the best from all previous editions (up to the point of being largely copy-paste). At this point, I would expect a V30 edition to be based either on V5 and thus being a V5.5 re-issue, or being V6.

                But of course, nothing has been announced at this time. But in 2021, there would be enough material around to do what many feel is a proper edition of V5 with all clans, and all major sects, Let Rose Bailey and Matthew Dawkins write it, and it would be a dream come true. Rose's work on VtR2 was stellar, and Beckett's Jyhad Diary is one of my all-time favorites of the whole VtM line.
                Last edited by Murder-of-Crows; 02-09-2019, 07:00 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                  All this assumes that there will be any new editions of course - there are no plans by anybody at this time.

                  Any anniversary of Vampire: The Masquerade can only nominally be based off the 1st edition release date, although, to be fair V20 had more in common with Vampire Revised, in terms of style and development, than earlier editions.

                  That's because V20 was repackaged Revised with a little bit of cleanup.

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                  • WARNING: This is just my opinion and nothing more, so feel free to disagree with me and take my words with a grain of salt.

                    V6 should officially retcon V5 and declare that most of the metaplot never happened.

                    Put the Gangrel back in the Camarilla and take the Setites and Assamites out (they work better as Independent Clans).

                    Also, make the Ravnos a full clan again as they can be cleared up of any unfortunate baggage without having to nuke them (Dark Ages and V20 more or less did just that)

                    Also, if they want V6 to sell, they should stop listening to a vocal minority and just stop trying to pursue personal horror as the primary theme of the game. Go for action-horror and mystery instead.

                    V6 should be a lot more like V1 and V2, a lot less like Revised and nothing at all like V5.

                    Play up the action-horror and downplay the personal horror, make it edgy in a good way like 1E and 2E Masquerade were, and not edgy in a bad way like V5 is.

                    This isn't the 90's anymore, Goth and Punk are dead and have been for quite some time now.

                    V5 and the backlash it got is more than enough proof that personal horror doesn't sell anymore and most people are not interested in it.

                    The tepid sales of Requiem is also proof of this, although VtR 1E's poor sales can also be partly attributed to the fact that RPG's as a whole were in a deep recession for most of the 2000's.

                    Then there's the fact that Revised Edition (which was the most personal horror-heavy of all the editions prior to V5) was so overburdened with metaplot and personal horror themes that it was badly hurting sales and WW had no choice but to self-destruct the setting and start over again.
                    Last edited by Camilla; 02-09-2019, 04:17 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                      V5 and the backlash it got is more than enough proof that personal horror doesn't sell anymore and most people are not interested in it.
                      While the backlash is absolutely a thing from many, and with lots of very solid reasons for it, V5 actually seems to be doing well in terms of sales, at least from what I can tell based on Amazon and ivc2.com. We've got a Geek and Sundry show promoting the game as well, which did right by D&D 5. I've heard testimonies from a few stores that the books are selling well, and need reorders - while unreliable, its at least some indication that some places are doing well with the books.

                      Like it or not, things seem to be pointing that V5 is doing at least decently. Not a complete runaway, but enough that I'm feeling confident that its a commercial success. And with Modiphius taking helm, and contracting the writing out to good writers, hopefully we'll see far less controversy in goods.

                      The tepid sales of Requiem is also proof of this,
                      Now, I don't have the sales figures for Requiem, so I'm can't to say if its tepid or not, but lets say you're right for now. Lower sales for Requiem can be the result of a large number of factors. The usual reason I see quoted tends to be the lack of metaplot, followed by the loss of favorite clans. When I was following the surveys and playtests for when D&D 5 was being made, one of the things that came out was that players thought that story and background were critical for a game. I would personally attribute weaker sales of Requiem at launch to a lack of story, rather than a dislike of personal horror. And once that ship sailed, it never quite recovered. Or there could be other factors at play. Blaming it on "personal horror" is questionable.

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                      • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                        V5 and the backlash it got is more than enough proof that personal horror doesn't sell anymore and most people are not interested in it.
                        ...Camilla didn't you make a big deal about how you weren't going to insert your views on personal horror anymore because you know it leads to arguments from others?

                        Why are you still doing this?

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                        • Originally posted by tasti man LH View Post

                          ...Camilla didn't you make a big deal about how you weren't going to insert your views on personal horror anymore because you know it leads to arguments from others?

                          Why are you still doing this?

                          I wasn't trying to start an argument here, I was simply offering an opinion actually relevant to the discussion of V5. I'm genuinely worried about whether or not Modiphius can save V5 precisely because NuWW listened to the vocal minority of personal horror fans and paid the price for it

                          Also, for clarity's sake, I said I wasn't going to discuss politics to avoid arguments, and I have not brought up any political hot-button issues in this thread.

                          That being said, I may have been a little too harsh and I will edit my post accordingly.
                          Last edited by Camilla; 02-09-2019, 03:49 PM.

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                          • Camilla devoloping your wonderful comment more What the Masquerade needs isnt a new edition but a REBOOT

                            The mechanics have always been a mesh and a crime against playability but the salvable point of the masquerade was the setting and his characters....

                            And then the Writers decide that from 3rd Edition onwards the metaplot it is gonna be about destroying the setting and their characters becuase Gehena



                            V20 grace was not only being a compilation but being Metaplot agnostic becuase the masquerade metaplot not only is so bad that can be considerated a crime war but it is also a nonsense becuase suddenly you go from playing Games of Thrones with fangs to being a victim of an armageddon where Chuluth like beings go full kaiju start figthing against each other becuase YOLO and then you start asking yourself if you are still playing the same game.



                            "Absimiliard overfedded tamagochi , accurate portrait"

                            V5 deciding to continue Revised Metaplot leads to bad results becuase they are working on a bad structure to being with and the new rules are even worse becuase not only are they bad but becuase now they are also exclusive Wait you wanted to play Elders? in a game were the main theme is the act of rebellion from the dark masters well of Course you Can´t becuase they are put in a bus to Syria doing Gehena Stuff becuase Gehena Stuff justifies everything so stop protesting and come here to play the game how it should be played as a agnst drama of personal horror.



                            Seriusly all that babbling about personal horror and Dark poetry makes me wanna frenzy

                            FINAL NOTE
                            The Rebbot is the only thing that can clean up this mesh becuase starting freash has the advantaje that allows you to planify something that never happened with the masquerade and yes I can understand people liking Gehena but that can be devoloped by selling setting like DnD (Look patrick easy money) and hell if you wanna talk about Eldritcth being do it but you are gonna be consistent wich whatever you are gonna do unless you want to sell a clusterfuck
                            Last edited by Leandro16; 02-09-2019, 04:19 PM.


                            Hunger pool

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                            • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                              Camilla devoloping your wonderful comment more What the Masquerade needs isnt a new edition but a REBOOT

                              The mechanics have always been a mesh and a crime against playability but the salvable point of the masquerade was the setting and his characters....

                              And then the Writers decide that from 3rd Edition onwards the metaplot it is gonna be about destroying the setting and their characters becuase Gehena



                              V20 grace was not only being a compilation but being Metaplot agnostic becuase the masquerade metaplot not only is so bad that can be considerated a crime war but it is also a nonsense becuase suddenly you go from playing Games of Thrones with fangs to being a victim of an armageddon where Chuluth like beings go full kaiju start figthing against each other becuase YOLO and then you start asking yourself if you are still playing the same game.



                              "Absimiliard overfedded tamagochi , accurate portrait"

                              V5 deciding to continue Revised Metaplot leads to bad results becuase they are working on a bad structure to being with and the new rules are even worse becuase not only are they bad but becuase now they are also exclusive Wait you wanted to play Elders? in a game were the main theme is the act of rebellion from the dark masters well of Course you Can´t becuase they are put in a bus to Syria doing Gehena Stuff becuase Gehena Stuff justifies everything so stop protesting and come here to play the game how it should be played as a agnst drama of personal horror.



                              Seriusly all that babbling about personal horror and Dark poetry makes me wanna frenzy

                              FINAL NOTE
                              The Rebbot is the only thing that can clean up this mesh becuase starting freash has the advantaje that allows you to planify something that never happened with the masquerade and yes I can understand people liking Gehena but that can be devoloped by selling setting like DnD (Look patrick easy money) and hell if you wanna talk about Eldritcth being do it but you are gonna be consistent wich whatever you are gonna do unless you want to sell a clusterfuck

                              This guy gets it.

                              Seriously, I find your ideas intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Camilla View Post
                                Also, if they want V6 to sell, they should stop listening to a vocal minority and just stop trying to pursue personal horror as the primary theme of the game. Go for action-horror and mystery instead.
                                Stop listening to a vocal minority like you too? If we are going to share anecdotes, I can assure you that if the games were designed the way you desire, almost everybody I know who are playing WoD games, as they are, would move on to something else instead. There are simply better games out there that do what you are asking for, just because they are designed that way, while the WoD games would lose their essential identity if they followed your vision.

                                V6 should be a lot more like V1 and V2, a lot less like Revised and nothing at all like V5.

                                Play up the action-horror and downplay the personal horror, make it edgy in a good way like 1E and 2E Masquerade were, and not edgy in a bad way like V5 is.

                                This isn't the 90's anymore, Goth and Punk are dead and have been for quite some time now.
                                V1 and V2 were not action horror, they were explicitly self described as "Personal Horror" and were also "Gothic Punk" by design. You are conradicting yourself by calling for the return of V1 and V2 and denying what they actually were. Your comparison to V5, therefore, lacks validity.

                                V5 and the backlash it got is more than enough proof that personal horror doesn't sell anymore and most people are not interested in it.

                                The tepid sales of Requiem is also proof of this, although VtR 1E's poor sales can also be partly attributed to the fact that RPG's as a whole were in a deep recession for most of the 2000's.

                                Then there's the fact that Revised Edition (which was the most personal horror-heavy of all the editions prior to V5) was so overburdened with metaplot and personal horror themes that it was badly hurting sales and WW had no choice but to self-destruct the setting and start over again.
                                You're views on what has sold or not is squewered by your own prejudices, and are not authoritive.

                                The jury is still out on whether V5 has been successful, considering it's only just been released and is still awaiting it's first supplement to hit the shelves. It had a difficult launch due to all the well documented controversies, but Modiphius wouldn't have picked up the mantle of it's development unless they thought they could make money out of it. So it remains a wait-and-see situation. The sales of Vampire: The Requiem, whatever they were, still had at least five years of retail life before White Wolf sold their rights, and Onyx Path are still selling CoD titles today lest we forget. So if we are making comparisons on this level then V5 has plenty of years of running time still to go. We know that supplements are coming out for the game in 2019, at the very least, so claims of it's demise are overstated.

                                RPGs were absolutely not in a recession in the 2000s - so it is not stating a "fact" to claim otherwise. It was the time of the D20/OGL boom which allowed for lots of companies to be formed and others to reset their own publishing plans - there was a big upturn in playing numbers during that time. The 'recession' for RPGs was actually in the 1990s after the boom of the 1980s, where several established RPG companies went out of business or stopped producing RPGs and the playing numbers dwindled. Ironically, White Wolf rose in the 1990s when other games were declining, essentially because what they were offering back then was a bit different. That difference was basically found in their focus on 'personal horror' and the 'gothic-punk' style. Indeed, the 'World of Darkness' perspective appealed to many gamers because it reflected the experience of social and economic decline that people felt at the time, including in the RPG hobby as it was back then.

                                Vampire Revised was the least personal horror of the 90s editions, because it had began to drift more into the realm of urban power fantasy at this stage - while attempting to integrate more lore and alternative playstyles as options. V20 was the logical extension of this approach. V5 was an attempt to go back to a more focussed approach as in V1, especially.

                                Your entire perspective of the history of the game is idiosyncratic.
                                Last edited by Trippy; 02-09-2019, 05:35 PM.

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