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Modiphius taking over Vampire: The Masquerade

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  • Originally posted by MCN View Post

    Now, I don't have the sales figures for Requiem, so I'm can't to say if its tepid or not, but lets say you're right for now. Lower sales for Requiem can be the result of a large number of factors. The usual reason I see quoted tends to be the lack of metaplot, followed by the loss of favorite clans. When I was following the surveys and playtests for when D&D 5 was being made, one of the things that came out was that players thought that story and background were critical for a game. I would personally attribute weaker sales of Requiem at launch to a lack of story, rather than a dislike of personal horror. And once that ship sailed, it never quite recovered. Or there could be other factors at play. Blaming it on "personal horror" is questionable.
    There is, I think, a lot of confusion between backstory and metaplot. Backstory was present in the first two editions, and helped the game become one of the most successful role-playing games of all time. Metaplot was introduced in the revised edition of Vampire in 1998, and most players of the game hadn't even come across the term until it was discussed in Nights of Prophesy in 2000. To put it bluntly, the original version of Vampire: the Masquerade went for longer without metaplot than with it as a background device, and the Vampire metaplot, oversaw a period of diminishing sales.

    One of the issues with metaplot is that it skews the target audience of a game. In a game which makes its sales to a general audience, you sell on the basis of accessibility; this appears to be the policy underlying D&D5, and, in that instance at least, has been pretty successful. For a metaplot-driven game line, you are relying on a smaller audience, who will buy every book, so as to keep up with the ongoing soap opera. As a publisher, you end up putting out books like Succubus Club: Dead Man's Party, not because there is any great need for the book, but because you need to keep up the supplement treadmill, as it's the only way to maintain interest from the fans.
    Last edited by James_Willoughby; 02-09-2019, 07:51 PM. Reason: Correcting tags

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    • Speaking personally for myself, I didn't really buy into the New World of Darkness (Requiem, etc) largely because I was bunt out on the proliferation of books under the previous World of Darkness, and the whole 'End of Everything' metaplot and subsequent new line of Everything simply gave me a welcome opportunity to opt out of addictive habits of buying book after book.

      I got into other games, enjoyed myself, and although some of the 20th anniversary stuff interested me, it was only V5 that actually stimulated a desire to set up a new campaign to run and play with.
      Last edited by Trippy; 02-09-2019, 09:08 PM.

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      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
        Speaking personally for myself, I didn't really buy into the New World of Darkness (Requiem, etc) largely because I was bunt out on the proliferation of books under the previous World of Darkness, and the whole 'End of Everything' metaplot and subsequent new line of Everything simply game me awelcome opportunity to opt out of addictive habits of buying book after book.
        My impression was that the player base of Vampire: the Masquerade didn't intersect all that closely with the player base of Vampire: the Requiem; I think your reason was a fairly common one, as was the issue of redundancy. From my point-of-view I had a perfectly adequate game about vampires, so there was no particular reason to buy another perfectly adequate game about vampires.

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        • It is curious that V5 has changed both vital rules for the scenario retroactively (which for sure in a V6 will be removed) and unnecessary but did not make a fudamental change. Give a more mystical character to the vampires so that they escape the technological scrutiny (as The Shadow of the Vampire shows, so something very subtle). This was not necessary in the 1990s, but in the world of 2020 this is necessary to give some credibility and not break the suspension of disbelief so that we believe the existence of vampires is not common knowledge.

          The current system of disciplines for example makes all Metaplot impossible to have happened and things have arrived in the Current State.

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          • The V5 crash problem was not the focus on Personal Horror. It is rather that the new system of humanity has effectively killed personal horror, in addition to the experience system rewarding bloodthirsty actions.

            This V5 system will never come close to the depth that the Dark Ages had with their interpretation of vampire morality as a necessary theology to support some rationality and therefore the need even of social structures to reinforce this theology in the fight against the Beast as an enemy real, like the tragedy of the saints who felt the hell.

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            • Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
              The V5 crash problem was not the focus on Personal Horror. It is rather that the new system of humanity has effectively killed personal horror, in addition to the experience system rewarding bloodthirsty actions.
              How so? I can see neither effect.

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              • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                Stop listening to a vocal minority like you too? If we are going to share anecdotes, I can assure you that if the games were designed the way you desire, almost everybody I know who are playing WoD games, as they are, would move on to something else instead. There are simply better games out there that do what you are asking for, just because they are designed that way, while the WoD games would lose their essential identity if they followed your vision.

                V1 and V2 were not action horror, they were explicitly self described as "Personal Horror" and were also "Gothic Punk" by design. You are conradicting yourself by calling for the return of V1 and V2 and denying what they actually were. Your comparison to V5, therefore, lacks validity.

                You're views on what has sold or not is squewered by your own prejudices, and are not authoritive.

                The jury is still out on whether V5 has been successful, considering it's only just been released and is still awaiting it's first supplement to hit the shelves. It had a difficult launch due to all the well documented controversies, but Modiphius wouldn't have picked up the mantle of it's development unless they thought they could make money out of it. So it remains a wait-and-see situation. The sales of Vampire: The Requiem, whatever they were, still had at least five years of retail life before White Wolf sold their rights, and Onyx Path are still selling CoD titles today lest we forget. So if we are making comparisons on this level then V5 has plenty of years of running time still to go. We know that supplements are coming out for the game in 2019, at the very least, so claims of it's demise are overstated.

                RPGs were absolutely not in a recession in the 2000s - so it is not stating a "fact" to claim otherwise. It was the time of the D20/OGL boom which allowed for lots of companies to be formed and others to reset their own publishing plans - there was a big upturn in playing numbers during that time. The 'recession' for RPGs was actually in the 1990s after the boom of the 1980s, where several established RPG companies went out of business or stopped producing RPGs and the playing numbers dwindled. Ironically, White Wolf rose in the 1990s when other games were declining, essentially because what they were offering back then was a bit different. That difference was basically found in their focus on 'personal horror' and the 'gothic-punk' style. Indeed, the 'World of Darkness' perspective appealed to many gamers because it reflected the experience of social and economic decline that people felt at the time, including in the RPG hobby as it was back then.

                Vampire Revised was the least personal horror of the 90s editions, because it had began to drift more into the realm of urban power fantasy at this stage - while attempting to integrate more lore and alternative playstyles as options. V20 was the logical extension of this approach. V5 was an attempt to go back to a more focussed approach as in V1, especially.

                Your entire perspective of the history of the game is idiosyncratic.
                Arguably, the urban power fantasy was actually at its height in latterday second edition (Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand being the big one; but Mage had all kinds of gonzo fun going on at this time, too), but there had always been tendencies there (Chaos Factor, anyone?).

                What Revised did was scale that back a bit and broaden the playable factions. With the exception of the Week of Nightmares, which was the product of blowing up a whole gameline, the rest of the edition didn't feel as epic as books that had come before it.

                The Sabbat and Camarilla became easier to play, in that the Sabbat took on a more cohesive form. There was also more focus on the wars between the two. Arguably, this was to the detriment of the Anarchs, but many people liked playing Sabbat during this edition.

                Revised was definitely a bit more 'one true way' than the previous edition (hence, Enoch getting nuked because it was badwrongfun) but less so than V5. But, honestly, there was always a vein of snobbery running through the first three editions. That wasn't really addressed until the 20th Anniversary Editions, which tried to be more temperate.

                Metaplot was always a thing in one form or another (hence why we got three Chicago Chronicles compiling slightly different versions of the same setting, plus a bunch of new plot threads in each). Again, until V20, although it had a bit (especially in later books).

                ETA: The Time of Judgment was an obvious example where Revised exploded, but that was almost a V3.5 (the gamelines came together to create a new semi-edition of apocalyptic supernaturals). Things went from 7/10 on the epic scale to 1000/10 in a short space of time.
                Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 02-10-2019, 11:31 AM.

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                • Originally posted by Ben Linus View Post
                  Give a more mystical character to the vampires so that they escape the technological scrutiny (as The Shadow of the Vampire shows, so something very subtle). This was not necessary in the 1990s, but in the world of 2020 this is necessary to give some credibility and not break the suspension of disbelief so that we believe the existence of vampires is not common knowledge.
                  YES, Overpopulation thanks to no embrace mechanic and no way to make people forget the feeding except the blatant lie for all the clans without dominate (It was a passionate kiss on the neck).Even Bloodlines made your Kiss have amnnesic propierties.

                  About hidding from technology I would make all the vampires faces distorted unless they use the blush of life on videos and images to make identification more difficult


                  Hunger pool

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                  • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                    YES, Overpopulation thanks to no embrace mechanic and no way to make people forget the feeding except the blatant lie for all the clans without dominate (It was a passionate kiss on the neck).Even Bloodlines made your Kiss have amnnesic propierties.

                    About hidding from technology I would make all the vampires faces distorted unless they use the blush of life on videos and images to make identification more difficult

                    And all of that would've made people scream "OH GOD THEY'RE TAKING MORE FROM REQUIEM' even more than they do (Requiem 1e, remember, had all vampires be blurry like that on camera).

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                    • Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                      Arguably, the urban power fantasy was actually at its height in latterday second edition (Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand being the big one; but Mage had all kinds of gonzo fun going on at this time, too), but there had always been tendencies there (Chaos Factor, anyone?).

                      What Revised did was scale that back a bit and broaden the playable factions. With the exception of the Week of Nightmares, which was the product of blowing up a whole gameline, the rest of the edition didn't feel as epic as books that had come before it.

                      The Sabbat and Camarilla became easier to play, in that the Sabbat took on a more cohesive form. There was also more focus on the wars between the two. Arguably, this was to the detriment of the Anarchs, but many people liked playing Sabbat during this edition.

                      Revised was definitely a bit more 'one true way' than the previous edition (hence, Enoch getting nuked because it was badwrongfun) but less so than V5. But, honestly, there was always a vein of snobbery running through the first three editions. That wasn't really addressed until the 20th Anniversary Editions, which tried to be more temperate.

                      Metaplot was always a thing in one form or another (hence why we got three Chicago Chronicles compiling slightly different versions of the same setting, plus a bunch of new plot threads in each). Again, until V20, although it had a bit (especially in later books).

                      ETA: The Time of Judgment was an obvious example where Revised exploded, but that was almost a V3.5 (the gamelines came together to create a new semi-edition of apocalyptic supernaturals). Things went from 7/10 on the epic scale to 1000/10 in a short space of time.
                      Agree. I think some people make the mistake of judging Revised on the Time of Judgment/Week of Nightmares stuff and forget how one-true-way-ist it was sometimes and not in the direction of power fantasy. The culmination of that, in my eyes, was actually the VtR 1e corebook.

                      It's just it was still a lot more open than V5. Also, it didn't start the edition with blowing up the setting.


                      If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                      • Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post


                        And all of that would've made people scream "OH GOD THEY'RE TAKING MORE FROM REQUIEM' even more than they do (Requiem 1e, remember, had all vampires be blurry like that on camera).
                        I think that Requiem 2ED does that too , I will check but taking things from requiem is not bad per se for example if you say that the new edition is gonna have the Fog of Ages I will scream No God Please No becuase that was a bad "Core" Mechanic like Hunger but on the other hand if you tell me that they are bringing Blood potency , devotions or the versatile disciplines I will say YAY.


                        Hunger pool

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                        • Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post

                          I think that Requiem 2ED does that too , I will check but taking things from requiem is not bad per se for example if you say that the new edition is gonna have the Fog of Ages I will scream No God Please No becuase that was a bad "Core" Mechanic like Hunger but on the other hand if you tell me that they are bringing Blood potency , devotions or the versatile disciplines I will say YAY.

                          I didn't say it was bad. But with all the shrieking about touchstones, removal of blood pool (which people seem to think invalidates the prior lore for whatever reason), blood potency, removal of appearance/perception and replacement with resolve and composure that happened, adding MORE stuff from Requiem (no matter how 'good') would elicit even more shrieking about 'more retroactive changes' and the fandom is already schizo over changes half the time anyway. Also, adding in the blurring effect would be an even bigger Masquerade threat, seeing as anyone with a cellphone camera suddenly captures rando blur guys throughout the city, as many vampires don't care to use blush of life all the time.

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                          • Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post
                            I didn't say it was bad. But with all the shrieking about touchstones, removal of blood pool (which people seem to think invalidates the prior lore for whatever reason),
                            Lore Reasons;

                            1 - Taste of Blood (Thaumaturgy 1)
                            DAV20 gives how much blood (Blood Points) you hold, but V20 Modern doesn't, I can't remember previous editions ruling with clarity.

                            2- Dr Netchurch studied (Tortured) vampires to determine the Vitae efficacy unit, a scale that equals a blood point, and maximum by generation based on how long a full vampire can survive before falling into torpor, how much is required to heal, fuel disciplines, pump strength and potency required to create ghouls.
                            Literally finding the in game scope of world rules (Like studying Physics) for Blood point value, Blood pool and the thinblood's increased cost to fuel certain activities.
                            https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Vitae_Efficacy_Unit

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                            • Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                              Lore Reasons;

                              1 - Taste of Blood (Thaumaturgy 1)
                              DAV20 gives how much blood (Blood Points) you hold, but V20 Modern doesn't, I can't remember previous editions ruling with clarity.

                              2- Dr Netchurch studied (Tortured) vampires to determine the Vitae efficacy unit, a scale that equals a blood point, and maximum by generation based on how long a full vampire can survive before falling into torpor, how much is required to heal, fuel disciplines, pump strength and potency required to create ghouls.
                              Literally finding the in game scope of world rules (Like studying Physics) for Blood point value, Blood pool and the thinblood's increased cost to fuel certain activities.
                              https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Vitae_Efficacy_Unit
                              Yeah, except Hunger doesn't explicitly represent how much blood you have. Hunger represents a different concept than what a Blood Point represented.

                              Part appetite, part lust, and part addiction, Hunger gives voice to the Blood and claws to the Beast. It calls to vampires constantly, whispering and screaming of needs, urges, and desires. Every vampire awakens to Hunger and must kill to silence it. The Kindred pay for their immortality and their powers in Hunger, and the bill is always coming due.

                              That doesn't invalidate the lore, it just means the lore is not explicitly tied to the gas meter mechanic any more. It can still be cited, particularly in regards to elders and their various reroll rules to mitigate Hunger. Yes, you drink blood to slake Hunger, but Hunger is no longer the old Blood Point concept.

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                              • Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post
                                Yeah, except Hunger doesn't explicitly represent how much blood you have. Hunger represents a different concept than what a Blood Point represented.
                                That doesn't invalidate the lore, it just means the lore is not explicitly tied to the gas meter mechanic any more. It can still be cited, particularly in regards to elders and their various reroll rules to mitigate Hunger. Yes, you drink blood to slake Hunger, but Hunger is no longer the old Blood Point concept.
                                Whether it represents how much blood you've got or not, which is probably too difficult an argument to actually get in to as it's more opinion than facts at this point, the facts presented as VEUs and limits of such no longer are constants with the way hunger affects things

                                Torpor - 50% chance of getting hungry each day if nothing else is "roused"
                                Which means that 3% of the sample is out of blood by night 5. One in 10 000 is still not Hungry at all after 10 days. From Neonate to Eldest Elder. Torpour is no longer (Bloodpool +1) days away
                                Healing a 10 x minor wounds is no longer the guaranteed limit of a neonate's (13th Gen) limit for healing. It could be 5, it could go through 15-20 without needing to feed inbetween.

                                While the mechanics do not measure the exact same thing, it has meant that the old measures are now inaccurate.

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