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Character concept: master phlebotomist

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

    Becoming an Ante (...)
    Note that a Vampire cannot become an Antediluvian. Assuming that a Vampire would succesfully lower her ( or his ) Generation to 3rd, she would be a 3rd Generation Vampire. Such a Vampire would lack the experience, and maybe also lack other distinct traits and qualities, that the 3rd Generation Founders / Antediluvians have.
    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-29-2018, 11:20 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
      Note that a Vampire cannot become an Antediluvian. Assuming that a Vampire would succesfully lower her ( or his ) Generation to 3rd, she would be a 3rd Generation Vampire. Such a Vampire would lack the experience, and maybe also lack other distinct traits and qualities, that the 3rd Generation Founders / Antediluvians have.
      You mean like Tremere? : P

      Ironically enough that could be a boon. Being raised to 3rd gen may end up making you into a caintiff considering you are now equal(in blood potency) to your clan founder, and thus may become free of their weakness(like the tremere clan 1st-revised). Though you'll probably get your own fancy new curse depending on how you went about lowering your generation(Like the giovani).

      I will point out the the "Antediluvian" title is pointed out as pretty semantic In Universe. The Tremere, and Giovani founders are refered to as such even if they were Long after the flood and happen to be out classed by some of the more ancient methuselah.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
        You mean like Tremere? : P
        I wouldn't say 'like Tremere' because he was a Mage. While being a Mage before becoming a Vampire it is not at all comparable to being an Antediluvian in regard to how potent it makes an individual, it is still nonetheless a distinct characteristic in regard to Tremere's capabilities, insight, and experience.

        ( Giovanni was a Sorcerer before becoming a Vampire, as far as I am aware of ? )

        Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
        I will point out the the "Antediluvian" title is pointed out as pretty semantic In Universe. The Tremere, and Giovani founders are refered to as such even if they were Long after the flood and happen to be out classed by some of the more ancient methuselah.
        I would say this is an oversight or an in-setting mistake. Too much focus on the fact of a Vampire being of low Generation, rather than other characteristics of 3rd Generation Founders / Antediluvians ( By the way, are 3rd Generation Antediluvians who did not create a Clan mentioned anywhere else than the "Gehenna" book ? ) . I like to think that what 3rd Generation Founders / Antediluvians experienced during these ancient times and specific circumstances might have given them traits, abilities, and specialities which would be very hard - if not impossible - to develop during later eras.
        Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-29-2018, 01:23 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          I wouldn't say 'like Tremere' because he was a Mage. While being a Mage before becoming a Vampire it is not at all comparable to being an Antediluvian in regard to how potent it makes an individual, it is still nonetheless a distinct characteristic in regard to Tremere's capabilities, insight, and experience.

          ( Giovanni was a Sorcerer before becoming a Vampire, as far as I am aware of ? )
          The unfortunate fact is, at least mechanically, a mage with spheres and arete at 5 is more comparable to an antedeluvian than a vampire with 5 in whatever discipline. It's a bit like trying to compare Dragon Ball Z to a supernatural crime drama. One is better written and has more in depth characters, the other can vaporize buildings with their mind.

          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          I would say this is an oversight or an in-setting mistake. Too much focus on the fact of a Vampire being of low Generation, rather than other characteristics of 3rd Generation Founders / Antediluvians ( By the way, are 3rd Generation Antediluvians who did not create a Clan mentioned anywhere else than the "Gehenna" book ? ) . I like to think that what 3rd Generation Founders / Antediluvians experienced during these ancient times and specific circumstances might have given them traits, abilities, and specialities which would be very hard - if not impossible - to develop during later eras.
          Yes, there's an NPC named "The Shaper" that's called out as a vampire just as old and powerful as the other Antes, but chose not to embrace anyone.

          You second point is a double edged sword though. Just as the things the Antes experienced in the distant past shaped them and their abilities, so to does the present for modern vampires. I'd say there are just as many abilities that the Antes just don't have and Can't learn do to just how much of their mind would be taken up by habits/worldviews only useful in the distant past. Look at science, it's long since reached the tipping point of exponentially accelerating with every new invention. Progress is happening so fast that the older vampires are falling behind thanks to their mentality that nothing will change and that they'll have all the time in the world to learn/catch up(much like modern politicians and the internet.). Heck blood magic is now getting the same treatment with thaumaturgy adding the scientific method to magic(ironically making the tremere the vampire equivalent to the order of reason).

          I'd say the ancient Methuselah and Antes would be far more limited by their own ancient roots and long worldviews. They'd be less likely to rush out to become part of the modern world do to their own overconfidence that they have all the time in the world, paranoia against raising their hand, and Ironically narrow perspective thanks to essentially being raised when ancient Man was his Dumbest, Cruelest, and most Bias. I've always been of the opinion that, despite thy're amazing powers, the oldest vampires are destined to fail, the masquerade Will fall, and those that didn't choose to keep up will be crushed by the boot of progress.

          There's actually examples of this IRL, with the exposure of the internet essentially tearing apart the propaganda and new control many first world countries used to take for granted. Now only the minority of people trust the news, Approval rates of have never been lower, and a couple hours of Google-Fu can get you a person's entire life story. The internet's own inception would be so damaging to the masquerade that the only way to stop a second Inquisition would be for vampires to Reveal Themselves and spin enough good PR to integrate into society as something of a weird racial minority.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
            The unfortunate fact is, at least mechanically, a mage with spheres and arete at 5 is more comparable to an antedeluvian than a vampire with 5 in whatever discipline. It's a bit like trying to compare Dragon Ball Z to a supernatural crime drama. One is better written and has more in depth characters, the other can vaporize buildings with their mind.
            I don't think any Mage is comparable at all to a 3rd Generation Founder. ( My point about the Tremere was that he would have some distinct experiences and insights because he was a Mage ; it wasn't about direct power ) Also, Vampire Disciplines are very potent ( as far as I know, significantly more potent than Magick in direct comparison ) ; the fact that most of Discipline Powers accomplish only one result is offset by their potency and the various applications that can be found for them in practice. The Mages also have to take Paradox into account. And don't forget all the other advantages that Vampires have - greater toughness and ability to heal, Physical Disciplines, the ability to create Ghouls ( I think there are some more that I don't remember currently, or that I am not aware of. ) .

            Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
            Yes, there's an NPC named "The Shaper" that's called out as a vampire just as old and powerful as the other Antes, but chose not to embrace anyone.
            She is described in the "Gehenna" book ; I'm asking if Antediluvians who didn't create Clans are mentioned in any other books.

            Originally posted by Prometheas View Post
            (...) I'd say the ancient Methuselah and Antes would be far more limited by their own ancient roots and long worldviews. (...)
            I don't think adapting and prospering in the modern times is problematic for very old Vampires at all to the extent that you described it. I think it is at most a side issue or a minor problem for these Vampires.
            Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-30-2018, 06:18 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
              I don't think any Mage is comparable at all to a 3rd Generation Founder. ( My point about the Tremere was that he would have some distinct experiences and insights because he was a Mage ; it wasn't about direct power ) Also, Vampire Disciplines are very potent ( as far as I know, significantly more potent than Magick in direct comparison ) ; the fact that most of Discipline Powers accomplish only one result is offset by their potency and the various applications that can be found for them in practice. The Mages also have to take Paradox into account. And don't forget all the other advantages that Vampires have - greater toughness and ability to heal, Physical Disciplines, the ability to create Ghouls ( I think there are some more that I don't remember currently, or that I am not aware of. ) .


              She is described in the "Gehenna" book ; I'm asking if Antediluvians who didn't create Clans are mentioned in any other books.


              I don't think adapting and prospering in the modern times is problematic for very old Vampires at all to the extent that you described it. I think it is at most a side issue or a minor problem for these Vampires.
              Disciplines are quick to use, granted. But with the right spheres you can replicate every effect Disciplines can do. RAW Paradox isn't really that bad and can be circumvented depending on edition.
              And if you take wonders and hanging spells into account the time requirements mostly vanish for practical purposes.
              YMMV of course.


              So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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              • #22
                Clan Tremere did feel they got the shaft when they turned to vampirism, If you check the clan books. They simply wanted immortality so they could pursue their goals more. But then they lost access to their spheres. So yeah, I’d be pissed too. Starting back at square one sucks.
                A starting level mage can be loads more dangerous then antideluvians. Time sphere is broken imo. Correspondence can be too. Look at your opponent and send them across the globe where it’s noon midday. Poof. Freeze time then wack them. Thud. Cheesetastic.
                Last edited by Pnizzle; 12-30-2018, 04:32 PM.

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                • #23
                  The Character could also try to get Bardo 3,
                  The Dark Ages rules "Animal blood is just as nourishing to the character as human blood. An animal is considered to have a blood pool equal to the number of health levels it has, rather than the lesser value usually assigned to represent the creature’s blood (see p. 396 for drinking from animals). This ability is always active once learned."

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nonsense View Post

                    Disciplines are quick to use, granted. But with the right spheres you can replicate every effect Disciplines can do. RAW Paradox isn't really that bad and can be circumvented depending on edition.
                    And if you take wonders and hanging spells into account the time requirements mostly vanish for practical purposes.
                    YMMV of course.
                    Many of the Discipline Powers are so potent that to achieve a similar outcome with Magick would require so many successes at a high difficulty ( 8 or more ) that it is either strictly theoretical or not at all dependable. The Physical Disciplines are better than Magickal increases of physical capabilities, and they can be always relied on.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                      Many of the Discipline Powers are so potent that to achieve a similar outcome with Magick would require so many successes at a high difficulty ( 8 or more ) that it is either strictly theoretical or not at all dependable. The Physical Disciplines are better than Magickal increases of physical capabilities, and they can be always relied on.
                      Some effects are difficult to achieve, I don't deny that. But if a mage wants to he could prepare a hanging Forces effect to deny the vampire movement by changing movement into heat. This Friction curse makes Potence and Celerity useless. By virtue of hanging the effect with Time 4 you can cast the spell in advance in your sanctum with your cult of followers.
                      In a white room scenario the Disciplines have the upper hand (generally speaking). But if you face an prepared mage I wouldn't bet on the Disciplines as your saving grace.

                      Mage spheres trade easy power for versatility. Potence is ad hoc way more powerful than Forces. But with Forces you can also do make a bunch of other things (levitation, invisibility, deflection of harmful things just to name a few things possible with only Forces at 2).


                      So, this Zen Master walks up to a hot dog stand and says: "Make me one with everything!"

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        I don't think any Mage is comparable at all to a 3rd Generation Founder. ( My point about the Tremere was that he would have some distinct experiences and insights because he was a Mage ; it wasn't about direct power ) Also, Vampire Disciplines are very potent ( as far as I know, significantly more potent than Magick in direct comparison ) ; the fact that most of Discipline Powers accomplish only one result is offset by their potency and the various applications that can be found for them in practice. The Mages also have to take Paradox into account. And don't forget all the other advantages that Vampires have - greater toughness and ability to heal, Physical Disciplines, the ability to create Ghouls ( I think there are some more that I don't remember currently, or that I am not aware of. ) .
                        It depends on the effect as others have said. There are however Many ways for mages to prepare large amount of successes for a spell ahead of time, circumvent paradox, and pull together masses of quintessence when dealing with Sphere 5 mages. Not to mention the fact such mages are rarely alone when the can be the head of(or at least part of) a Cabal.

                        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        She is described in the "Gehenna" book ; I'm asking if Antediluvians who didn't create Clans are mentioned in any other books.
                        Er, I don't think I have any other examples. Sorry.

                        Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                        I don't think adapting and prospering in the modern times is problematic for very old Vampires at all to the extent that you described it. I think it is at most a side issue or a minor problem for these Vampires.
                        Er, I believe not adapting well to modern times is a problem Specifically Called Out in the books as something most elders deal with. Even for the vampires who adapt well, elders have the problem of humanity becoming exponentially harder to maintain as they age and falling to torpor becomes more common. If you spent decades to centuries at a time sleeping and factor in the fact that human society evolves along an exponential rate of change(of which the 19th to 21st centuries are the curve before the line goes from mostly level to Straight Up), most vampires of more than a thousand years should be pretty lost right now.

                        IT's difficulty trying to teach my Dad about new tech and the changes in culture they brought, I have trouble believing that a millenia old, reclusive, friendless sociopath that's used to looking at humans like bugs is going to handle the sudden shift in the power structure very well. The political leaders of my country are still trying to use old propaganda tactics and becoming confused/terrified when they fail spectacularly do to the free availability of information granted to us by the internet, simply because they fail to understand the change such technology brings to culture. I don't see most people older than 60 faring much better, barring a few exceptions, and don't see why vampire would be any different.
                        Last edited by Prometheas; 12-31-2018, 09:59 PM.

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