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Are the Ministry and House Carna a game-changer for the Anarchs?

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  • #61
    It doesn’t have to be about being good. Crime dramas (explicitly named as an inspiration for Anarch games) are about somewhat sympathetic bad guys. A lot of Vampire games are about being just as bad as you need to be but not as bad as those other guys. So Camarilla and Anarchs are pretty bad, but they tell themselves at least the Sabbat are worse. The Sabbat tell themselves... other things, but Sabbat games have always been something of an inversion of the default mode.

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    • #62
      I'm just saying for most games, humanity loss is meant to be a slippery slope not a marathon.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #63
        Whilst i think we can all agree the Camarilla aren't 'good' guys, I personally don't think that Anarchs are inherently better! By and large they are younger, and therefore not only closer to their human life and feelings (which mirror more closely some Anarch tenets), but also decidedly not in a position of power. No one likes to get crapped on, and the younger rabble have something to rebel against that the Elders don't. In my eyes, there are some genuinely good Anarchs who want to bring down the system for good reasons, just as there are some Good Camarilla who either want to reform it from within, or are not in a position to notice or change things (being a straight, white Male, there's a load of injustice in the world i ignore due to inertia, and i like to think i'm as involved as i can be). Given time (and not dying young like most Anarchs) i'd expect your average Anarch to either migrate to the Camarilla or become a Baron that apes their ways. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the camarilla are just the ones that have got to that position already.

        Camarilla and Anarchs are two sides of the same coin to me. it doesn't help that i see Vampires as inherently corrupt, all will get to the same position given enough time - which (un)luckily enough is something they all have plenty of!

        All that said, if all this were real, and i was embraced tomorrow, i like to think i'd side with the Anarchs.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          Honestly, a lot of people treat it as a net negative
          It's almost like the few good things to come out of the French Revolution don't outweigh all the bloodshed and terror (both at home and abroad). Who'd have thought?

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Ideon View Post
            It's almost like the few good things to come out of the French Revolution don't outweigh all the bloodshed and terror (both at home and abroad). Who'd have thought?
            Which is the attitude everywhere but France where starving children in the street and mass tyranny were considered worse than a period of persecution.

            I mean, no one seriously thinks King Louis staying in power would have been a good thing.
            Last edited by CTPhipps; 01-03-2019, 04:28 PM.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #66
              Generally, I think part of the issue with the Anarchs is the fact that they were portrayed as people who were always on the verge of revolution but never actually DOING the Revolution, which hurt their chances. They were, more or less, portrayed as people the PCs needed to kick into high gear.

              Juggler, at least, makes this make sense in Chicago by Night. Juggler is a poseur who makes it so the Anarchs can't rise up and kill Lodin. Maldavis is a woman who TRIED to overthrow Lodin and it ended up killing everyone else. So she's traumatized. The problem is, we're not always in Chicago.

              So why do the Anarchs not have more success?

              Generally, the attitude seems to be the Anarchs are more like a group safety defense force than actively trying to kill the Prince. They join together to prevent the Sheriff and Prince from killing them all off so only rich vampire exist.

              I'm glad we have Berlin, Vegas, and other territories having been taken over by the Anarchs because it allows them to have had genuine success. Technically, even the Empire of Washington D.C. is an Anarch Free State with Marcus Vitel as one.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                Generally, I think part of the issue with the Anarchs is the fact that they were portrayed as people who were always on the verge of revolution but never actually DOING the Revolution, which hurt their chances. They were, more or less, portrayed as people the PCs needed to kick into high gear.
                (...)
                It always struck me as somehow deceptive and delusional that the Anarchs' principal outlook and attitude was rejecting the status quo of organizations, Sects, factions, and societies of Vampires. Antagonism, revolution, and opposition is definitely not the approach to change matters and circumstances for the better in this case, I think. If some Vampires want to make it better and fairer for Vampires in general, then I think that they can definitely try and suceed in doing this while being in the Camarilla .

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                  It always struck me as somehow deceptive and delusional that the Anarchs' principal outlook and attitude was rejecting the status quo of organizations, Sects, factions, and societies of Vampires. Antagonism, revolution, and opposition is definitely not the approach to change matters and circumstances for the better in this case, I think. If some Vampires want to make it better and fairer for Vampires in general, then I think that they can definitely try and suceed in doing this while being in the Camarilla .
                  I prefer to think of the Camarilla as the mafia.

                  No one actually thinks the mafia is for the good.

                  Not even the mafia.

                  However, the people in the mafia know that they can benefit themselves if they play it right.

                  The appeal of the Camarilla is, "You can murder, loot, dominate, and enslave anyone you want as long as you respect these rules--and stay out of the boss' territory."


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    I prefer to think of the Camarilla as the mafia.

                    No one actually thinks the mafia is for the good.

                    Not even the mafia.

                    However, the people in the mafia know that they can benefit themselves if they play it right.

                    The appeal of the Camarilla is, "You can murder, loot, dominate, and enslave anyone you want as long as you respect these rules--and stay out of the boss' territory."
                    Assuming that morality should be considered, I think that Vampires in the Camarilla are much better and moral persons than the persons involved in organized crime / the mafia. Note tha almost all Vampires in the Camarilla follow Humanity, are cultured ( and in many different ways - Clan cultures, general Camarilla culture, and the cultures from natonalities and societies of mundane humans ) , and know what respect is. Though I don't think it is appropriate to compare the two very broad groups, as they are too different.
                    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-03-2019, 05:23 PM.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                      Assuming that morality should be considered, I think that Vampires in the Camarilla are much better and moral persons than the persons involved in organized crime / the mafia. Note tha almost all Vampires in the Camarilla follow Humanity, are cultured ( and in many different ways - Clan cultures, general Camarilla culture, and the cultures from natonalities and societies of mundane humans ) , and know what respect is. Though I don't think it is appropriate to compare the two very broad groups, as they are too different.
                      I have a different view but everyone has their own take on the subject. No one's wrong at their own table.

                      As you might guess, the Anarchs get a somewhat more respected seat at my table than some of the other posters here.

                      Others feel the same way about the Sabbat.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        I have a different view but everyone has their own take on the subject. No one's wrong at their own table.

                        As you might guess, the Anarchs get a somewhat more respected seat at my table than some of the other posters here.

                        Others feel the same way about the Sabbat.
                        I do agree that there are Vampires in the Camarilla that are more or less villains ( while still having some positive traits ) . Then there are Vampires who are mainly self-interested, or principally loyal to her ( or his ) Clan, the Camarilla in general, a particular Prince, her Sire, her Coterie. These persons can act in villianous or evil ( if this word is used ) ways , but they do have some lines they won't cross, and can be talked or negotiated with about their approach.
                        I think that the V:tM setting is more sensible and interesting if there are Vampires in the Camarilla ( and overall ) who are distinctly different than these two groups. Vampires who, to various extents, genuinely are persons who consider matters and values like respect, culture, and pleasantness to be valueable and important.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                          Assuming that morality should be considered, I think that Vampires in the Camarilla are much better and moral persons than the persons involved in organized crime / the mafia. Note tha almost all Vampires in the Camarilla follow Humanity, are cultured ( and in many different ways - Clan cultures, general Camarilla culture, and the cultures from natonalities and societies of mundane humans ) , and know what respect is. Though I don't think it is appropriate to compare the two very broad groups, as they are too different.
                          Vampires assault people and steal blood on a nightly basis, even those that "willingly" do it do so because of supernatural influence or supernatural pleasure.It's coerced consent...

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                            Assuming that morality should be considered, I think that Vampires in the Camarilla are much better and moral persons than the persons involved in organized crime / the mafia...
                            Some years ago White wolf published a book on the mafia - just the human mafia. I've not read the book. But I suspect the human mafia in the World of Darkness are not part of a race of hidden and super natural parasite people, who burn in sunlight, can be driven away by true faith, and so forth.

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                            • #74
                              The Camarilla *is* a mafia, in the general sense of the term. It’s also got all the negative aspects of it, plus a few more.

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                              • #75
                                Definition: A mafia (Italian pronunciation: [ˈmaːfja]) is a type of organized crime syndicate whose primary activities are protection racketeering, the arbitration of disputes between criminals, and the organizing and oversight of illegal agreements and transactions.[1] Mafias often engage in secondary activities such as gambling, loan sharking, drug-trafficking, prostitution, and fraud.

                                Yup, I'd agree with Black Flag. You'd need to look at the "Protection racket" being, we drink your blood as the cost of protecting you from others who will... drink your blood

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