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What sort of Magical Defenses could have saved Austria and Venice?

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  • #46
    Raiding a base for military supplies is one thing, not getting raided back by black ops anti supernatural teams or even conventional military is another. Forensics is a thing, and so is supernatural investigation.


    It is a time for great deeds!

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Damian May View Post
      Well ' Ward versus Technology' which all the important elements of the chantry had according to canon, should have turned the missile to dust and combined with 'Sanctuary' another ritual supposedly on the Chantry no one could have even entered the buildings uninvited.......so either it was a massive coordinated inside job or...... it was just written to happen no matter what defences were in place.
      If the Technocracy is involved the Tremere have the whole power of Awakened magick against them. Yes, they already fought that war and survived it, still not unscathed and this attack surely didn't wipe out their clan. Sadly, Awakened magick is much more versatile and powerful than any ritual the Tremere clan is able to conjure - also more costly, but it could totally justify locating and dewarding a Chantry.

      Their involvement makes it somehow sensible they targeted the magic-user clans first, but even so this story still feels a bit cheesy.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post

        If the Technocracy is involved the Tremere have the whole power of Awakened magick against them. Yes, they already fought that war and survived it, still not unscathed and this attack surely didn't wipe out their clan. Sadly, Awakened magick is much more versatile and powerful than any ritual the Tremere clan is able to conjure - also more costly, but it could totally justify locating and dewarding a Chantry.

        Their involvement makes it somehow sensible they targeted the magic-user clans first, but even so this story still feels a bit cheesy.

        If they're involved. There was a mention in the pre-alpha but I don't recall seeing anything about NWO Agents or the like in the raiding party in the core. If M5 ever happens I guess we'll find out then.

        I haven't looked at V5 corebook in a while, is there anything about how Europe is reacting to having the centre of Vienna being a smouldering crater, I mean the areas covered by the chantry were much larger than the areas covered by the Twin Towers in NY so this has got to be having massive repurcussions throughout the world.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          It's also the sheer lack of autonomy.

          So a guy steals a fighter jet somehow.

          1. Assuming he can get it gassed up
          2. Assuming he can take off
          3. Assuming he can avoid being shot down
          4. Assuming the sun doesn't get him
          5. Assuming he can hide it
          6. Assuming the entirety of the world isn't looking for him
          7. Assuming that he can get it to his target to take off
          8. Assuming he can use it

          Is what he does really better than just attacking with a bunch of shovelheads or an exploding gas truck?
          ... Yet the Camarilla has the perfect werewithal and control of temporal military might to blow a mystic place that doesn't even exist on any sensible map to kingdom come. Sabbat can groom people with the necessary skills and target locations within strike range. As can they pretty much spike the rations in Camp Wherever with Enough Vitae to have your own ghouled military detachment. Or even grab one pilot and then use disiciplines or simple soft pressure to get them to do what they want. They are the same in their capacity for massive destruction.

          You're not being very consistant here. The only reason why neither the Camarilla nor the Sabbat resorts to such tactics because it causes escalation, and once you escalate that far the whole setting falls apart.The only reason Vampire works is because someone somewhere concluded the idea was that people wanted to keep a low profile and didn't want to rush their powers and influence to their logical conclusion.



          What doesn't kill you, makes you... stranger.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Damian May View Post
            Well ' Ward versus Technology' which all the important elements of the chantry had according to canon, should have turned the missile to dust and combined with 'Sanctuary' another ritual supposedly on the Chantry no one could have even entered the buildings uninvited.......so either it was a massive coordinated inside job or...... it was just written to happen no matter what defences were in place.
            Be careful of “canon,” especially anything that requires you to assume a particular discipline works the same way it was depicted as working in a previous edition. The Tremere’s blood magic is still versatile, but it’s gotten a lot saner as far as what it can do. There appears to be no ward vs. “technology,” e.g., which is good because that doesn’t even make sense (the zipper on your pants is technology). You can ward a place against humans, but you can’t put up a blanket anti-everything barrier.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Asmodai View Post
              How did the Second Inquistion actually attack a city like Vienna with missiles and how did they end up destroying the whole chantry that sprawled among multiple buildings and underground without destroying the center of the city?
              I see this complaint a lot and I think it makes some assumptions the text doesn't support. The core book doesn't give us exhaustive details about the Vienna raid beyond that it involved drone strikes and ground teams wielding relics, but I very much doubt it physically destroyed all the buildings comprising the chantry.

              To my mind, the likely sequence of events goes like this: the Inquisition breaches the chantry with overwhelming force, dropping a couple bombs against the hardest points for extra shock and awe. The Tremere put two and two together and figure out the base and clan are compromised by a human government. They go to evacuate; in the chaos, a lot of them are killed on-site or tracked down shortly after.

              End result: the chantry is compromised and no longer usable, the vampires are scattered or dead, and Vienna is sufficiently intact to spin the attack as from mundane enemies. I'd say "destroyed" is still a fair description of the Tremere's power base in that scenario.
              Last edited by Cielle; 12-26-2018, 01:34 AM.

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              • #52
                Okay that’s a lot saner. They didn’t get tomahawk missiled just bombed and the Swatted.

                If that is the case I would imagine many had magical backdoors to escape from.

                How many of the council survived because I would wager this would be a good time for some to fake their death.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Black Flag View Post

                  Be careful of “canon,” especially anything that requires you to assume a particular discipline works the same way it was depicted as working in a previous edition. The Tremere’s blood magic is still versatile, but it’s gotten a lot saner as far as what it can do. There appears to be no ward vs. “technology,” e.g., which is good because that doesn’t even make sense (the zipper on your pants is technology). You can ward a place against humans, but you can’t put up a blanket anti-everything barrier.

                  Right, you understand that removing enormous swathes of Blood Magic and associated rituals is a massive retcon then and why people would be confused, right? I mean if the idea is that if its not in the core it never existed then whole swathes of VtM history just collapse in a heap; the Tremere would simply have been steamrolled the moment they stuck their head up and certainly would never have survived into the modern nights considering what they went through in the Middle Ages and Renaissance.

                  But, yeah we get it. The writers wanted it this way and so anything that could have prevented it from happening just didn't; for reasons. End of story.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                    Okay that’s a lot saner. They didn’t get tomahawk missiled just bombed and the Swatted.

                    If that is the case I would imagine many had magical backdoors to escape from.

                    How many of the council survived because I would wager this would be a good time for some to fake their death.

                    Saner....but thats still missile strikes against some of the worlds most important historical buildings in the capital city of a major western european nation. This does not lead to anything but an even bigger version of the fallout from 9/11 though its Europe so possibly with less bombing of unrelated countries for no reason.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Asmodai View Post

                      ... Yet the Camarilla has the perfect werewithal and control of temporal military might to blow a mystic place that doesn't even exist on any sensible map to kingdom come. Sabbat can groom people with the necessary skills and target locations within strike range. As can they pretty much spike the rations in Camp Wherever with Enough Vitae to have your own ghouled military detachment. Or even grab one pilot and then use disiciplines or simple soft pressure to get them to do what they want. They are the same in their capacity for massive destruction.

                      You're not being very consistant here. The only reason why neither the Camarilla nor the Sabbat resorts to such tactics because it causes escalation, and once you escalate that far the whole setting falls apart.The only reason Vampire works is because someone somewhere concluded the idea was that people wanted to keep a low profile and didn't want to rush their powers and influence to their logical conclusion.
                      If you didn't get the idea of what I was suggesting it's...

                      1. It is IMPOSSIBLE to control the military and government
                      2. You can DiRECT them possibly
                      3. It's probably incredibly stupid to do so as we see with the SI discovering vampires exist because of the Camarilla using them against the Sabbat
                      4. The vampire race is screwed by this as humans are the goliath not the vampires.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                        Saner....but thats still missile strikes against some of the worlds most important historical buildings in the capital city of a major western european nation. This does not lead to anything but an even bigger version of the fallout from 9/11 though its Europe so possibly with less bombing of unrelated countries for no reason.
                        Well it's not an important historical building.

                        No one even knows the chantry exists.

                        They also blamed ISIS for the explosions.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #57
                          Wait how do you blame ISIS, are they saying they used something like Rocket Launchers or a planted Bomb and just hope people ignore the witnesses who see otherwise? How many countries are in on this?


                          It is a time for great deeds!

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            Well it's not an important historical building.

                            No one even knows the chantry exists.

                            They also blamed ISIS for the explosions.

                            Whats not a historical building? Large parts of the chantry are within and beneath historical buildings...this is just a fact.

                            ISIS apparently now operators Predators without issue within major European cities......FFS....from the description in the book I'm still trying to determine how they covered up breaching the same buildings already missile attacked as an anti-terrorist action. Were the terrorists supposedly attacking the same buildings they were sheltering in? If the SI personnel were going in as 'rescue teams' how did they explain the fact that they were heavily armed and armoured?

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Damian May View Post

                              Whats not a historical building? Large parts of the chantry are within and beneath historical buildings...this is just a fact
                              It teleports around so they only have to attack it when it's not underneath a historical building.

                              As for the rest, the answer is inevitably going to be less alarmist than, "There are a bunch of vampires underneath a castle"


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                                Well ' Ward versus Technology' which all the important elements of the chantry had according to canon, should have turned the missile to dust and combined with 'Sanctuary' another ritual supposedly on the Chantry no one could have even entered the buildings uninvited.......so either it was a massive coordinated inside job or...... it was just written to happen no matter what defences were in place.
                                Ward versus Technology has the 'the possessor' of the technology do a Willpower roll equal to Thaumaturgy rating + 3. Though, in V20, this is given as an Inconnu ritual.
                                For Santuary, 'The thaumaturge casting this ritual must first find and acquire a building that has not been tainted with violence of any kind' and any act of violence in the building breaks the protection. And it kind of beggars belief that the Prime Tremere Chantry hasn't seen any violence in fifty years. And, as was noted, a single traitor (coerced or not) would invalidate this given they could break it rather easily.

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