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What sort of Magical Defenses could have saved Austria and Venice?

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  • #76
    "What sort of magic can the 7 do?"

    "Whatever the ST needs them to."

    My view is Blood Sorcery can do anything true magic can, it just takes longer. True Mages are the Mozarts to the Salieri of magic. They are naturally gifted and able to do things the others can't but it's not that the others CAN'T do it at all. It's just they don't have the intimate virtuoso connection with it and to the layman, the differences are unapparent.



    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      Because they're good and most vampires are evil?
      First - it really makes me confused that the Celestial Chorus, out of all Mage groups, is mentioned as the one that would aid a group that is indiscriminately hostile towards Vampires. Didn't it occur to you that if they are what could be called good, then they would take another approach ? Like helping Vampires not harm humans, for example.
      Furthermore, because the Second Inquisition wants to harm all Vampires, then they are acting contradictory to the outlook of the Choristers. Choristers would be effectively selling themselves out by aiding them. Aren't Choristers a group that would say "Better for ten Sabbat Vampires to be left alone, than for one Camarilla Vampire to be in danger because of actions against these Sabbat Vampires." ? I really see much depth and potential in such an approach. Certainly it is a decision that does not lead to violence and hostility. I think that many Choristers would agree with this outlook.
      And of course there might be Choristers who are personally sympathetic towards Vampires - for whatever reasons - and thus would sooner act against the Second Inquisition than aid them. After all, who are mere mundane humans to judge and try to harm Nightfolk ?

      Second - I really don't understand the "Vampires are evil" part. They drink blood because they have to drink blood. Under the right circumstances, they don't kill humans that they feed from. Vampires are mentioned in the M:tA book "Masters of the Art" as persons with who experienced Mages - Masters and Archmasters - could have a relation with ; and they are mentioned first, before anyone else. Mentioned specifically are : Malkavians, Followers of Set, Tremere, Brujah, Tzimisce, Assamites. ( pages 35-37 )
      In regard to the evil part - the Technocracy has steered mundane humans in such a way that the ability of the vast majority of them to believe in mysticism and religion is very subdued. Can they be considered evil ? I mention this to point out that the harm that Vampires do to single humans only - and which can be minimized or not happen at all - can be considered largely irrelevant compared to what they Technocracy did, and does currently.

      Also, there is the consideration that the Second Inquisition are mundane humans who could be hostile to Mages as well. Also, they can't be trusted to keep secrecy in regard to the supernatural ( because it is not a priority or important for them, and because they don't have the means and capabilities to keep secrecy ) , including secrecy in regard to Mages. I think these two are very real reasons why Mages would not be aiding the Second Inquisition at all.

      Lilith helped develop the Disciplines of the Vampires, according to some myths. That Lilith decided to involve herself in this way does point to the fact that Vampirism is not an evil condition, and that a person who is a Vampire does not have to be an evil person.

      Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
      Vampires are expressly cursed by God/Allah/The One Above/Etc.
      If a member of the Second Inquisition - or a member of family of somebody from the Second Inquisition - is cursed by a Prelati of the Nephandi ( I mention the Prelati because the way they are described, there would be no escaping and no second chances for a mundane human ) , should this person be immediately killed by the Second Inquisition, because she ( or he ) is now cursed ? Curses are a mystical condition that bring bad situations and/or misfortune to a person. Just because somebody is cursed does not mean that she ( or he ) are a bad person ; and it certainly does not mean that others should be hostile or unfriendly towards a cursed person.

      Also, is it about that Vampires are considered to be cursed, or is it about some spirit or deity being unfriendly and/or hostile towards them ?

      There is much more written in regard to Vampirism in World of Darkness books other than the very narrow and pessimistic Judeo-Christian viewpoint. There is a lot information given that points to other origins for Vampires other than a single spirit or deity being responsible.
      Furthermore, within the "cursed by single deity" origin it is highly disputable whether Vampirism could be considered a curse at all. I think that condition has significantly more positives than drawbacks. Also, according to the myth in which Caine was cursed by a deity, the development of Disciplines came later. This is a definitely an advantage for Vampires, and shows that this state of being can bring positives and new capabilities for a person who is a Vampire.

      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      "The cursed sons and daughters of Caine--" Even though that's objectively true
      Like I said above, Vampirism in WoD doesn't seem like a curse at all to me. How exactly is it 'objectively true' that Vampires are cursed ?

      Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
      Their hunger headache only goes away when they murder someone. They corrupt and poison everything and everyone they touch.
      I do not recall V:tM books mentioning Vampires regularly having to murder mundane humans to deal with their thirst blood ; is this from V5 ?
      I don't understand the corrupt and poison part, could you elaborate ? The Revenant Families, for example, seem to have benefited greatly from involvement of and association with Vampires.
      Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-27-2018, 01:02 PM.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Muad'Dib
        First - it really makes me confused that the Celestial Chorus, out of all Mage groups, is called as the one that would aid a group that is indiscriminately hostile towards Vampires. Didn't it occur to you that if they are what could be called good, then they would take another approach ? Like helping Vampires not harm humans, for example.
        While "indiscriminately hostile" goes a little too far and certainly some Choristers would try to help good vampires, the Celestial Chorus it's way more militaristic than you seem to believe. In particular the Guardian Orders are more known for their zeal than their mercy.

        As a honorable mention: The Knights of St. George. An order founded in Syria in the 11th century and dedicated to protecting humanity from vampires and other monsters such as demons and werewolves, they admit women and non-christians freely. Emulating St. George and his slaying of the dragon, this self-professed knighthood practices the most powerful martial magicks and master the arts of war. Once the largest Guardian Order in the Chorus, fierce warriors at night, they were known as artists, statesmen and poets in the day.

        If I'm not mistaken this order gets a small mention in Hunters Hunted 2.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          If a member of the Second Inquisition - or a member of family of somebody from the Second Inquisition - is cursed by a Prelati of the Nephandi ( I mention the Prelati because the way they are described, there would be no escaping and no second chances for a mundane human ) , should this person be immediately killed by the Second Inquisition...
          Arguably, yes. The individual has been compromised by an enemy group during a critical on-going mission, putting the lives of other soldiers and agents at risk, putting the entire mission - an important mission - at risk. Terminating this person would be reasonable.

          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          Like I said above, Vampirism in WoD doesn't seem like a curse at all to me. How exactly is it 'objectively true' that Vampires are cursed ?
          You ask this and it feels like you are trolling us. That vampires have some advantages - immortality, strength, powers, etc - is not in question. But that that vampires are cursed should also be beyond question. It is a central theme of every version of the game since 1990. It has even been expressly stated, in-game and out of game, in the vampire books so often that you questioning it is startling and seems like the question itself has to be trick. It's like asking if this vampire game is about vampires.

          Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
          I do not recall V:tM books mentioning Vampires regularly having to murder mundane humans to deal with their thirst blood ; is this from V5 ?
          Yes. In V5 a vampire might feed until full, but still feel hunger and have to deal with hunger game mechanic problems. These only go away with murder.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
            Also, is it about that Vampires are considered to be cursed, or is it about some spirit or deity being unfriendly and/or hostile towards them ?
            Because that's the theme of the game. At the end of the day, you are cursed because of the fact you are an alcoholic except instead of alcohol you are cursed with a never-ending never-fully satisfied thirst for the blood of the humans around you. You can avoid killing people who are innocent and if you're very lucky it will only happen once or twice in your unlife but you are constantly, repeatedly, neverendingly tormented by the desire to WANT to do it.

            You can never be safely among humans.

            You are never going to be in the sun.

            You are also going to have to leave your family because vampires are ticking time bombs of rage and trauma.

            Being a vampire should not be awesome. If it is, I feel like the game loses a lot of its nuance. Being a vampire has tremendous powers and can be awesome but the powers themselves are all designed around making you treat humans like pieces of meat to thrown around, use or abuse.

            The most easy way to enjoy unlife is to.....well, not care. To be a scumbag. To rejoice in Domination, Dementation, Celerity, Potence, and feeding.

            But even if you do that, all it means is you WILL kill and it will be a horrible slaughter.

            And if you can't control what you are, you will degenerate and go irrevocably insane.

            For me, the point of being a vampire is that you are coping with the fact you are a monster and evil not by your choice. You can do more good than evil but you are always a thing which makes the world an objectively worse place as a whole even if you might be the guy who saves it every now and again.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #81
              There are vampires who deny that it’s a curse, but they have to reframe the discussion to do it. When animals and plants tend to recoil from you and such core elements of the natural world as the sun and fire seem bent on destroying you, and you can’t seem to help tainting and degrading mortal society by your very presence, it becomes hard to argue that you’re *good* for the world.

              But there are Vampire cults who regard the world and its creator as the ones who are corrupt, so by that logic vampires are just too holy to exist in this world. You can make up your own mind about how credible you find that justification, but the point is, that’s about how far you have to go to redefine it as a blessing rather than a curse.

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              • #82
                It’s worth noting that even Vampires considered the Cainite Heresy a Heresy, because they felt it was too extreme to treat their state as a blessing.


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
                  There are vampires who deny that it’s a curse, but they have to reframe the discussion to do it. When animals and plants tend to recoil from you and such core elements of the natural world as the sun and fire seem bent on destroying you, and you can’t seem to help tainting and degrading mortal society by your very presence, it becomes hard to argue that you’re *good* for the world.
                  Vampirism doesn't need to be a net good for the world before you can argue it's not a curse. It just needs to be a net good for the vampire.
                  Last edited by Cielle; 12-27-2018, 11:12 PM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                    Co-location means that you're binding space to let something exist in two different places at the same time; this means that if I burn the first place even the second ones burns up because they are literally the same location. We're instead trying to move one place to another and that requires both matter 2 (for the items inside) and life 3 (for the vampires inside or other living specimen).
                    I don't see why Conjunctional Pattern Spheres would be needed. If just Correspondence 5 can overlay / stack places on each other, then moving a place to another location should also require just Correspondence 5. Correspondence 4 Gates don't require Conjunctional Pattern Spheres.

                    Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                    (...) add some kind of destructive effect if you want to destroy anything that could be there and maybe merge with your latest experiment or precious book. (...)
                    The description of Co-location mentions this "No damage is done to objects that superimpose themselves upon one another during co-location, yet are solid to one another and once separated, they will not again superimpose." I think that Correspondence 5 would guarantee that there would be no damage or merging due to shifting the location of a place.

                    Though now that I think about, maybe Archmastery of Correspondence would be required to do a shift of a whole place to another location.
                    Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-28-2018, 07:26 AM.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Cielle View Post

                      Vampirism doesn't need to be a net good for the world before you can argue it's not a curse. It just needs to be a net good for the vampire.
                      Yeah, it's why Sabbat consider it a great gift.

                      While vampires who think of humans as not-snacks are horrified.

                      But again, it's very much about how you view vampirism in-setting. I still draw on Anne RIce.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
                        And I can imagine Celestial Choristers helping.
                        Or perhaps the Tradition which specifically has a grudge against Clan Tremere ...

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Czernobog View Post

                          Or perhaps the Tradition which specifically has a grudge against Clan Tremere ...
                          In my Chicago game I had a mage say that the Traditions and Technocracy are every bit as fucked up as the Camarilla and Sabbat these days but the Technocracy Remnant has allied with the Order of Hermes, Celestial Choir, and Euthanatos for hunting the undead.

                          Weirdly, it's done wonders for mage relations as a whole even if the SI is starting to pick up on the weird of their "consultants."

                          The SI also has "recruited" close to a hundred Hunters (Imbued and otherwise), including picking up people from prisons or asylums.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                            I don't see why Conjunctional Pattern Spheres would be needed. If just Correspondence 5 can overlay / stack places on each other, then moving a place to another location should also require just Correspondence 5. Correspondence 4 Gates don't require Conjunctional Pattern Spheres.
                            Because you're altering different things. For a Gate you're bending space and linking two different points together, there is no force or item affected by your magic; so you can create a Gate, take your pet dog and his bowl and push them through to move them from Rome to Shangai without the use of any Pattern sphere.
                            With co-location you are still bending just space: your PC is both in your house AND at work AND at your mama's house, and if you install anything on one of the three it gets installed on all three, if you throw it a kick the case will get bent in all the three locations. You never altered the PC's pattern with your magick, only adapted the space around it - that's why you still don't need pattern spheres; when your effect ends, the PC is still going to be at your home alone, disappearing from the other two locations.

                            To move an object from a place to another, though, you're affecting the patterns directly and this requires an appropriate Sphere. It's also written under the Correspondence 3 effect: "by combining Correspondence 3 with Forces, Life, or Matter, the mage can move things around from a distance, levitating, manipulating or teleporting them without physical contact."


                            "No damage is done to objects that superimpose themselves upon one another during co-location, yet are solid to one another and once separated, they will not again superimpose.
                            They are still going to superimpose though. If a chair fuses into your homunculus they're both unharmed but still locked together until someone unravels the spell.
                            Superimposing is also specified as a vulgar effect but... well, mass teleportation of a chantry is vulgar anyway so it's not like it matters right now.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                              You ask this and it feels like you are trolling us. That vampires have some advantages - immortality, strength, powers, etc - is not in question. But that that vampires are cursed should also be beyond question. It is a central theme of every version of the game since 1990. It has even been expressly stated, in-game and out of game, in the vampire books so often that you questioning it is startling and seems like the question itself has to be trick. It's like asking if this vampire game is about vampires.
                              Exactly this.
                              Characters inside the game may think whatever they want and believe in any creation myth they like but the whole theme of the game is that being a Vampire is a curse, the setting and the authors have always been pretty clear.

                              Even in the crossover supplement "The Red Sign", where a group of mages are reverting a vampire to human, it's clearly stated that every time through history it was attempted to reverse vampirism the magick failed because of the power of God's curse. The ritual is only going to succeed in that module because the End Times are near and you're using a very specific Rote.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Aleph View Post
                                While "indiscriminately hostile" goes a little too far and certainly some Choristers would try to help good vampires, the Celestial Chorus it's way more militaristic than you seem to believe. In particular the Guardian Orders are more known for their zeal than their mercy.
                                (...)
                                At the same time, the Celestial Chorus is a faction/group that has a distinct outlook towards redemption and second chances. This is why I am surprised that they get mentioned specifically as a group that would be aiding the Second Inquisition. Mages of the Celestial Chorus are probably among the few Tradition Mages who would be inclined to speak for Vampires with low Humanity or on Paths - after all, wouldn't these Choristers consider it a wondrous event if such a Vampire at least shows regret, and tries to change for the better ?
                                Also, the Second Inquisition's indiscriminate hostility is completely contrary to the idea of compassion, second chances, and redemption ( which is not a surprise, considering they are mundane humans ) .

                                In regard to Vampires harming individual mundane humans, I have this image in my head that some Choristers might prefer to help in regard to particular persons, rather than helping the greatest number possible. For example, such a Chorister would give a blanket ( and some food and drinks, and clothes etc. ) to one homeless person and spend the night talking with her ( or him ) about goodness, homelessness, and hope for the future ; instead of going out to give out blankets to more homeless persons, who would be shivering from cold while the Chorister gets to know better this one particular homeless person . I give this example to show that the approach of Choristers might be altogether different from how selflessness, charity, and goodness is acted on by mundane humans. Additionally, note that a Chorister might seek to consider deep ideas or to experience special interactions, rather than simply help for the sake of helping. Also, consider that a Vampire who regrets and starts acting for the better could be considered by Choristers an example to inspire others ; and with the capabilities that Vampires have, a Vampire who would be acting to help others would certainly be able to do a lot of good.

                                Originally posted by Maris Streck View Post
                                Exactly this.
                                Characters inside the game may think whatever they want and believe in any creation myth they like but the whole theme of the game is that being a Vampire is a curse, the setting and the authors have always been pretty clear.
                                To be honest I am not sure if I understand at all the whole idea of "Vampires are cursed" . Is a Vampire who is happy and content with her ( or his ) existence still cursed ? What does it mean, anyway ? Which traits of Vampirism do you consider part of this curse ?
                                According to one the myths, after Caine became a Vampire, he met Lilith, spend time with her, and as a result the Disciplines were developed. Are the Disciplines and their applications part of the "Vampires are cursed" setting element ? Is a Vampire in Golconda - the one version / interpretation that makes a Vampire expand one Blood Point per week rather than one per day to function - still cursed ? How many additional advantages and benefits would Vampirism would have to have for you to reconsider that Vampires are cursed ?

                                There is lots of empirical evidence in the setting pointing to the fact that Vampires are not cursed. Vampire characters are described in regard to their personalities, and matters and persons that they are involved with. It is extremely rarely that there is anything written about how a Vampire is unhappy or tormented because she ( or he ) is a Vampire. The fact that Vampires are so influential and managed to achieve so much is also contrary to them being cursed in any way.

                                Did you consider that writers are referring to the one of the ( possible ) themes of V:tM, rather than what Vampirism objectively is, or to some hard limitation of Vampires ?

                                My outlook in regard to Vampires in the World of Darkness could be compared to Noddism, or the Bahari beliefs. Limitations and disadvantages of Vampirism can be overcome. Vampirism has so many advantages and so many opportunities that this state of being elevates a person who is a Vampire.
                                Last edited by Muad'Dib; 12-29-2018, 08:09 AM.

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