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What sort of Magical Defenses could have saved Austria and Venice?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
    To be honest I am not sure if I understand at all the whole idea of "Vampires are cursed" . Is a Vampire who is happy and content with her ( or his ) existence still cursed ? What does it mean, anyway ? Which traits of Vampirism do you consider part of this curse ?
    Firstly, surely, the Beast: you constantly feel the pull to be more and more inhuman, with the centuries making you question your quaint human morality, until the day you find yourself only partially able to control yourself. And should you ignore it even then you'll lose yourself, since your consciousness gets definitely erased once you reach Humanity zero. And this happens because your soul is already gone and the void had been filled with your urges.

    Secondly, you can't get out in the day anymore; as a human you can live and stay awake whenever you want and like the most, while as a vampire you're forced to sleep through the day and physically harmed if you gets hit by the sun (this might feel like nothing but in the northern countries depression is often linked to lack of sunlight, almost every vampire is going to miss the sun eventually).

    You can't also eat food anymore and who knows, maybe you liked it; now you're just a blood junkie, your friends are now cattle and everything you believed in is changing around you. Your lovers will go on without you, your brother will have a nephew while you're forever forbidden to procreate and whatever is left of your family is going to be put in danger simply because you exist.

    According to one the myths, after Caine became a Vampire, he met Lilith, spend time with her, and as a result the Disciplines were developed. Are the Disciplines and their applications part of the "Vampires are cursed" setting element ?
    They're more a "there is power in your curse". Lilith was notoriously a mage and taught Caine how to tap the inherent power of his immortality. But you seem a bit confused on the setting in general. Every game will touch any kind of theme you like when you're the one playing it, but speaking of general setting VtM is mainly an horror game centered with the dehumanization of the individual.

    It's quite clear that "Interview with the Vampire" was one of the main inspirations for the game and it gives its best when used to play Louis' story, with his tragedies and angst and soulsearching. Yes, you can also play Lestat if you want, cut away the dramatic theme from VtM and keep only the political intrigue or the power struggles, but that's not really how the game was designed.

    Also known as: I bought a bed and I use it as a dining table. Yes, I can do it because it's mine and I do what I goddamn like with my stuff, but it still wasn't really made for that.
    Last edited by Maris Streck; 12-29-2018, 10:25 AM.

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    • #92
      Speaking of the defenses of the Chantry shouldn’t they have things like Severed heads that open their eyes to suck in nearby flame, effigies to take earthquake or bomb damage that crumble in the place of the building, and flat out Demon guardians? It feels like the siege of Vienna should be a chronicle for an inquisition game.


      And who knows it was an inside job? Presumably the non Shrekt houses?


      It is a time for great deeds!

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
        Speaking of the defenses of the Chantry shouldn’t they have things like Severed heads that open their eyes to suck in nearby flame, effigies to take earthquake or bomb damage that crumble in the place of the building, and flat out Demon guardians? It feels like the siege of Vienna should be a chronicle for an inquisition game. And who knows it was an inside job? Presumably the non Shrekt houses?
        Well, it depends on what you think the lesson and point of the story is.

        If the lesson is that the Vienna Chantry is basically R'lyeh then yes, you could do a Chronicle about a Call of Cthulhu-esque quest to find the Maguffins needed to bring down its defenses, make alliances (all the free gargoyles will attack X), and then the actual battle that ends up looking like the Raid on Innsmouth Chronicle with frightened shell shocked humans battling shoggoths with flame throwers while a few wizards throw in their help to make sure the Tremere don't overwhelm them.

        OR you can make it a chroncile about the hubris of relying on magic over mortal alliances, keeping a low profile, avoiding technology, and not advertising your haven to every Tremere in the world so that a 13th generation Brujah knows the Tremere leadership lives in Vienna.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #94
          Yeah but it’s mystically concealed, so without sabotage and or a Macguffin it shouldn’t be stumbles upon, especially since they control the city as much as any vampires can control a city that is part of the rest of the world. And we know smaller weaker ass chantries employ things like demons bound to corpses, and moving armor security and Biohacked Dobermans, the Vienna Chantry should and would be a hefty step above that. After all they abandoned the already defensible perfectly good Ceoris Chantry to build up an amazing world breaking Vienna Chantry try. Should we have some insane laboratory notes or something on literally the worlds Premier blood magic research center, and arguably biggest magical place of learning and power period?


          It is a time for great deeds!

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

            I remember reading a joke ages ago about how Ravnos won the Jyhad by his Chimistry to turn the WoD into an RPG.
            Careful! You're venturing into Runequest's territory with that idea

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            • #96
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              OR you can make it a chroncile about the hubris of relying on magic over mortal alliances, keeping a low profile, avoiding technology, and not advertising your haven to every Tremere in the world so that a 13th generation Brujah knows the Tremere leadership lives in Vienna.
              The Vienna Chantry is not exactly Hogwards.

              For one, there's a public Chantry where people who aren't supposed to be in the main one go (and that would include, I guess, any Tremere who doesn't need to go to the inner sanctum).

              The Tremere leadership doesn't live in Vienna. Etrius lives in Vienna and Tremere sleeps in Vienna. There are six other councillors and several Pontifex who live outside of the city and may never come here at all since all of them have means to speak with each others without travelling here.

              The Tremere do have contacts with the mortal world. They may not be the Toreadors and the Ventrues but they are listed as one of the richest clans, they have technomancers, people in universities, and some Tremere are in contact with weird people outside of vampiric society. Some of the Tremere archetypes actually include Tremere socialites with blood cults so they aren't living in a cave.

              The Tremere actually are keeping a low profile. We aren't in bloodlines where the Ventrue Prince lives in Venture Tower with his name advertised by a flashing sight in the middle of the hall. Chantries are usually hidden, nondescript, disguised as something else and protected with layers of administrative stuffs and magic.

              I feel like, for you, destruction by humans is the only lesson worth teaching in VtM. It's not. The fall of House Tremere should not be a tale about "dude mortals are scary", that's a tale for the Ventrue. The fall of House Tremere should be a tale about the failure of the Pyramid, betrayal from a top that was supposed to be wise and perfect. We are talking about a clan whose idology was that the Elders were always right, discipline and cohesion was the key to success. The Tremere were a fortress against the world, and the best lesson to teach is that totalitarism ultimatly collapses on itself. It is way better that the House devoured itself, that the fall came from within, because they feared for so long it would come from without. This is why destruction by the SI sucks, unless it was a move by Shreckt, Tremere/Goratrix or a suicide move from Etrius to try to take the Worm with him.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Kalendeer View Post
                The Vienna Chantry is not exactly Hogwards.

                For one, there's a public Chantry where people who aren't supposed to be in the main one go (and that would include, I guess, any Tremere who doesn't need to go to the inner sanctum).

                The Tremere leadership doesn't live in Vienna. Etrius lives in Vienna and Tremere sleeps in Vienna. There are six other councillors and several Pontifex who live outside of the city and may never come here at all since all of them have means to speak with each others without travelling here.

                The Tremere do have contacts with the mortal world. They may not be the Toreadors and the Ventrues but they are listed as one of the richest clans, they have technomancers, people in universities, and some Tremere are in contact with weird people outside of vampiric society. Some of the Tremere archetypes actually include Tremere socialites with blood cults so they aren't living in a cave.

                The Tremere actually are keeping a low profile. We aren't in bloodlines where the Ventrue Prince lives in Venture Tower with his name advertised by a flashing sight in the middle of the hall. Chantries are usually hidden, nondescript, disguised as something else and protected with layers of administrative stuffs and magic.

                I feel like, for you, destruction by humans is the only lesson worth teaching in VtM. It's not. The fall of House Tremere should not be a tale about "dude mortals are scary", that's a tale for the Ventrue. The fall of House Tremere should be a tale about the failure of the Pyramid, betrayal from a top that was supposed to be wise and perfect. We are talking about a clan whose idology was that the Elders were always right, discipline and cohesion was the key to success. The Tremere were a fortress against the world, and the best lesson to teach is that totalitarism ultimatly collapses on itself. It is way better that the House devoured itself, that the fall came from within, because they feared for so long it would come from without. This is why destruction by the SI sucks, unless it was a move by Shreckt, Tremere/Goratrix or a suicide move from Etrius to try to take the Worm with him.
                Perfectly well put! I agree!


                It is a time for great deeds!

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                • #98
                  Eh, in my game Tremere is the guy who removed the wards of the chantyr so the Second Inquisition destroyed them in hopes of killing Kupala-in-His-Body.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #99
                    My favorite theory is that Etrius did it. Despite being bloodbonded/entranced/dominated by the Worm, I think he does have the stats to be able to oppose it somewhat (his DA stats had him at Willpower 10 with Iron Will), and not only disable his own Chantry but also set up something that would break all the blood bonds in order to destroy the Pyramid from the top. I imagine everything important falling to dust, the wards failing until the Chantry is the just and empty shell, and him laughing bitterly at his suicide move while being devoured by one angry Worm. That's actually one of the possible endings for my Siege of Vienna campaign (that the PCs can get only if the high humanity salubri PC reaches Etrius; if she does he asks for her help to sacrifice himself to destroy the Pyramid and disable the main Chantry).

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                    • Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post



                      Is a Vampire who is happy and content with her ( or his ) existence still cursed ?
                      A vampire who is happy with his or her existence would likely fall to the beast fairly quickly. There probably are a fair number of vampires who were gluttonous and narcissistic enough in life that becoming a vampire is a joyous empowerment to them. They don't last long because they don't have enough motivation to restrain the beast. So they have a short, fun existence and then they go wight.

                      So I don't think it's so much that vampires who enjoy their existences don't exist, so much as they don't matter in the long run. The story isn't about Bob who considered becoming a vampire a dream come true and died as a wight or near-wight three months after being turned. It's about the miserable ancients and those miserable offspring who lasted long enough to have a meaningful campaign that likely included time-skips.



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                      • Originally posted by Damian May View Post
                        Well ' Ward versus Technology' which all the important elements of the chantry had according to canon, should have turned the missile to dust and combined with 'Sanctuary' another ritual supposedly on the Chantry no one could have even entered the buildings uninvited.......so either it was a massive coordinated inside job or...... it was just written to happen no matter what defences were in place.
                        Since this one seems to come up again and again: Ward vs Technology sucks if you want to actually use the warded place for anything, because the ward thwarts *all* technology more complicated than IIRC crossbows. No telephones, no computers, no electric light, no Bunsen burners for alchemical experiments even. That’s not a prime chantry, that’s a dump.

                        Regarding the attack, I wouldn’t put it past the involved parties to disguise a drone strike as a more standard terrorist bombing. After all, the investigation will likely be handled by the perpetrators. Sure, some people might find out, but then, some people think 9/11 was an inside job. Who cares about the tinfoil hats?

                        Or maybe unraveling the lies will be the first step in shutting down the SI in years to come. No one said they will not face consequences for their actions.

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