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  • #16
    Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post


    It's a 'bold new direction' for people who utterly hate everything about it, despite a large majority of the changes being natural advancements of large parts of the setting.
    Natural? Heh, I got a good laugh, thanks. The core ideas might be, but what they did with them is frequently anything but.


    It's mostly that a group of fans wanted 'V20 redux but with advanced plot' and didn't get it.
    If by "redux", you mean better mechanics, but essentially the same core system (with some new ideas) and the setting being recognizibly VtM in feel, but things happening, plot advancing, status quo changing, well, yeah. We waited for the next edition of VtM, not a re-imagining. Sorry, but not sorry.



    If nothing worked, then let's think!

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    • #17
      It’s still not as big a difference as we got with Revised, the edition with easily the most drastic metaplot advancements in the line’s entire history. People just forget that because the game was on hiatus for a decade, followed by an anniversary edition that tried to be metaplot-agnostic and thus didn’t really move things forward past where Revised left them.

      So a game known for its advancing metaplot and periodic setting shake-ups and startling revelations was basically on hold for 15 years, and some folks — many of whom came to the game during or just before that unusual period of stagnation — came to see the frozen state as how the game essentially was, as opposed to an anomaly.

      It’s almost funny how many of those folks will actually use the length of the hiatus as evidence for how long that state of affairs was extant, as a kind of argument for how it’s wrong to change it now. It’s a fascinating example of circular logic: it didn’t change when it wasn’t an active line, so therefore it mustn’t change now that it’s active again. Even funnier when those who came in at the tail end of the original run claim exclusive ownership over the line, insisting that the opinions of those of us with a decade on them don’t matter because (thanks to the hiatus) their preferred state of the setting was in place the longest.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
        It’s still not as big a difference as we got with Revised, the edition with easily the most drastic metaplot advancements in the line’s entire history. People just forget that because the game was on hiatus for a decade, followed by an anniversary edition that tried to be metaplot-agnostic and thus didn’t really move things forward past where Revised left them.

        So a game known for its advancing metaplot and periodic setting shake-ups and startling revelations was basically on hold for 15 years, and some folks — many of whom came to the game during or just before that unusual period of stagnation — came to see the frozen state as how the game essentially was, as opposed to an anomaly.

        It’s almost funny how many of those folks will actually use the length of the hiatus as evidence for how long that state of affairs was extant, as a kind of argument for how it’s wrong to change it now. It’s a fascinating example of circular logic: it didn’t change when it wasn’t an active line, so therefore it mustn’t change now that it’s active again. Even funnier when those who came in at the tail end of the original run claim exclusive ownership over the line, insisting that the opinions of those of us with a decade on them don’t matter because (thanks to the hiatus) their preferred state of the setting was in place the longest.
        Oh, please list the setting and rules changes, on par with the V5 ones, in Revised (excluding the actual Judgment Day books). I have exactly one (or two): the Avatar Storm and the Week of Nightmares. Everything else was of a much lesser magnitude, in terms of changing the lookout of the whole.

        Hell, I'd even say the introduction of whole new gamelines (Demon and Hunter) and the direct ending of another (Waith) and discontinued support of another (Changeling) had much lesser impact on the whole setting. Vampire still had ghosts for Necromancy, for example.

        Yes, lot of things happened AND THAT WAS GOOD (I'm not anti-advancement, I actually prefer active metaplot), but the core setting didn't change as much as with V5.


        If nothing worked, then let's think!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post


          It's a 'bold new direction' for people who utterly hate everything about it, despite a large majority of the changes being natural advancements of large parts of the setting. It's mostly that a group of fans wanted 'V20 redux but with advanced plot' and didn't get it.
          A ' V20 redux ' can still happen, whether in a new edition of V:tM , or in the future development of V5. I certainly hope that it will happen.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Black Flag View Post
            So a game known for its advancing metaplot and periodic setting shake-ups and startling revelations was basically on hold for 15 years, and some folks — many of whom came to the game during or just before that unusual period of stagnation — came to see the frozen state as how the game essentially was, as opposed to an anomaly.
            Gentleman Gamer did comment on this, basically; if there was 15 years of development, the changes would have been more severe overall - And that may have been the case, but it would have come through in smaller steps.
            This feels like a giant leap for Vampire-kind and because all of the little bits leading there weren't expounded upon as they could have been in 15 years of incremental progress. Also, traditionally the writing was (or seemed to be) influenced by the response that previous sections got. (Hence; very little follow up for the plots from Dirty Secrets of the Black hand until a V20 version came out)
            So, if we had 15 years of writers putting in on this, we would probably have had backtracking on bits that didn't seem to work or weren't received well for plot direction before we got to the 15 years in the future version that was V5. A much more curated plot line.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
              A ' V20 redux ' can still happen, whether in a new edition of V:tM , or in the future development of V5. I certainly hope that it will happen.
              Maybe, and hopefully. But Whitewolf/Paradox has put an end to V20 development within OP (From what I remember of OP statements) except for projects already in the pipeline. Which means that the only option would be OP Publishing through Storyteller Vault.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                Gentleman Gamer did comment on this, basically; if there was 15 years of development, the changes would have been more severe overall - And that may have been the case, but it would have come through in smaller steps.
                This feels like a giant leap for Vampire-kind and because all of the little bits leading there weren't expounded upon as they could have been in 15 years of incremental progress. Also, traditionally the writing was (or seemed to be) influenced by the response that previous sections got. (Hence; very little follow up for the plots from Dirty Secrets of the Black hand until a V20 version came out)
                So, if we had 15 years of writers putting in on this, we would probably have had backtracking on bits that didn't seem to work or weren't received well for plot direction before we got to the 15 years in the future version that was V5. A much more curated plot line.
                I understamd the reasons for V20 being "canon agnostic" hell, I was there back in those days in the forums and for every decision WW took on metaplot during Revised era, there was lots of crticism (good and bad). I believe their biggest mistake on this was Gehenna book. Everyone hoped to see all their backstory tied up in one place and it felt empty (not to say about their decision for the Ventrue Antediluvian being killed during the Second City...).

                But even if they claimed otherwise, Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra had bits of metaplot story there and BJD is THE quitessential metaplot book EVER.

                I guess V5 understood the importance of metaplot for the line and chose to exploit it from there (the SI concept is really great as story potential) and V5 is the first time the game systems have HUGE changes, so a revamped (pun not intended) visual makeover is completely undestandable from my POV.

                - Saga
                Last edited by Saga; 01-08-2019, 02:45 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                  Maybe, and hopefully. But Whitewolf/Paradox has put an end to V20 development within OP (From what I remember of OP statements) except for projects already in the pipeline. Which means that the only option would be OP Publishing through Storyteller Vault.
                  I am not wholly against V5. It does have it's good parts, and some interesting ideas and developments. But all in all, I would much prefer for V:tM 's ongoing development and direction to become closer to V20 and Revised.
                  I am thinking that if V5 doesn't become closer to V20, then maybe it could happen that it will end within at most two to three years ; and then in around two years a sixth edition / version of V:tM would be published and developed, for many years. An edition much closer to V20 and Revised, of course.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                    I am not wholly against V5. It does have it's good parts, and some interesting ideas and developments. But all in all, I would much prefer for V:tM 's ongoing development and direction to become closer to V20 and Revised.
                    I am thinking that if V5 doesn't become closer to V20, then maybe it could happen that it will end within at most two to three years ; and then in around two years a sixth edition / version of V:tM would be published and developed, for many years. An edition much closer to V20 and Revised, of course.
                    I highly doubt V20 to continue releasing Vampire (Masquerade) books while V5 is the current gameline. It's impossible. Whoever owns VtM publishing rights would never allow it.

                    - Saga

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
                      I am not wholly against V5. It does have it's good parts, and some interesting ideas and developments. But all in all, I would much prefer for V:tM 's ongoing development and direction to become closer to V20 and Revised.
                      I am thinking that if V5 doesn't become closer to V20, then maybe it could happen that it will end within at most two to three years ; and then in around two years a sixth edition / version of V:tM would be published and developed, for many years. An edition much closer to V20 and Revised, of course.
                      I don't think that Paradox would request a new edition after the capital put in to this one, unless the new books are up to the same standard as the Cam and Anarch books that is; and it needs to be wiped clean. But honestly, they'd probably just sink the TT books for a while and focus on other things with the IP instead.
                      Which is a pity, because I agree with you

                      and Saga

                      V20 Can technically be published right now though - With the Storyteller's Vault. I can't remember who mentioned it from inside OP, but there are a number of projects that some authors want to go out that MAY end up published that way. There would be no upfront licencing fees, project could still be kickstarted (I think) the only issue would be the profit share once it's up on Storyteller's Vault.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                        I don't think that Paradox would request a new edition after the capital put in to this one, unless the new books are up to the same standard as the Cam and Anarch books that is; and it needs to be wiped clean. But honestly, they'd probably just sink the TT books for a while and focus on other things with the IP instead.
                        Which is a pity, because I agree with you

                        and Saga

                        V20 Can technically be published right now though - With the Storyteller's Vault. I can't remember who mentioned it from inside OP, but there are a number of projects that some authors want to go out that MAY end up published that way. There would be no upfront licencing fees, project could still be kickstarted (I think) the only issue would be the profit share once it's up on Storyteller's Vault.
                        Sure, through Storytellers Vault is the obvious choice, but in retail or kickstarter, unlikely. I might be wrong though.

                        - Saga

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Saga View Post
                          (not to say about their decision for the Ventrue Antediluvian being killed during the Second City...).
                          As a fan of the Ventrue, I like the Ventrue ante having been destroyed in the Second City for several reasons:
                          • It highlights the Ventrue martyr/messiah complex. "We tried to give you a stable, well-run government. We tried to build a civilization to last the millennia, in a pax vampirica. But you people screwed it up. Again. The endless nights of work we gave willingly! And this is the thanks we get?"
                          • The Blue Bloods are arguably the most successful clan of vampires. Ever. They exist in every sect. They run most Camarilla cities, and they are no slouches in the Sabbat and Anarchs. They even are prominent in the Black Hand. All with no Antedeluvian. It kind of makes you wonder whether other clans (Tzimisce? Malkavians? Nosferatu?) might be better off without 3rd gens.
                          • It makes it clear that the Antes are not invulnerable blood-gods. Okay, Ravnos took a nuke to kill. Brujah and Cappadocius were destroyed from within their own clans. Saulot was possibly suicidal, or playing twelfth dimensional chess. Ventrue... he was just stone-cold killed. It makes he 3rd gens feel more... grounded.
                          • It prevents the Ventrue from having a stagnant locus of power. Lasombra had Sicily, Assamites have Alamut, and the Giovanni have Venice. The Ventrue? In theory, any hot-shot lick with vision, luck, and ruthlessness could rise to the top. Maybe your pc, even. Oh, it's not likely, and you'll probably get destroyed in the process, but there is room at the very top.
                          • It explains a few things about the clan culture, like the Agoge. You want talented, ambitious childer, but there is a history of such vampires turning on their sires. What do you do? You brainwash them as best you can, pound any square pegs into the round holes, and then require them to go away to build their own power-base... somewhere else.
                          • Guessing the motives of the killers is also a fun parlor game. Beyond the usual rebels and rivals, there's the issue of what a 3rd gen with the Ventrue weakness would eat. The Second City starts looking less like a city, and more like a farm. Maybe some of the cattle grew tired of being sent to the slaughterhouse?

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Saga View Post
                            Sure, through Storytellers Vault is the obvious choice, but in retail or kickstarter, unlikely. I might be wrong though.
                            - Saga
                            Onyx Path has the goodwill that a Kickstarter for V20 material could still be successful. It wouldn't go retail though, that's not the model for Storyteller Vault (Although, they could possibly do Print on Demand in the future) It's also not historically been the model for much of Onyx Path's productions.
                            But I think that's why they took the risk on Mophidius instead of going with Onyx path's history of excellence. (I'm a real big fan of the V20 and dark ages V20 lines)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post

                              As a fan of the Ventrue, I like the Ventrue ante having been destroyed in the Second City for several reasons:
                              • It highlights the Ventrue martyr/messiah complex. "We tried to give you a stable, well-run government. We tried to build a civilization to last the millennia, in a pax vampirica. But you people screwed it up. Again. The endless nights of work we gave willingly! And this is the thanks we get?"
                              • The Blue Bloods are arguably the most successful clan of vampires. Ever. They exist in every sect. They run most Camarilla cities, and they are no slouches in the Sabbat and Anarchs. They even are prominent in the Black Hand. All with no Antedeluvian. It kind of makes you wonder whether other clans (Tzimisce? Malkavians? Nosferatu?) might be better off without 3rd gens.
                              • It makes it clear that the Antes are not invulnerable blood-gods. Okay, Ravnos took a nuke to kill. Brujah and Cappadocius were destroyed from within their own clans. Saulot was possibly suicidal, or playing twelfth dimensional chess. Ventrue... he was just stone-cold killed. It makes he 3rd gens feel more... grounded.
                              • It prevents the Ventrue from having a stagnant locus of power. Lasombra had Sicily, Assamites have Alamut, and the Giovanni have Venice. The Ventrue? In theory, any hot-shot lick with vision, luck, and ruthlessness could rise to the top. Maybe your pc, even. Oh, it's not likely, and you'll probably get destroyed in the process, but there is room at the very top.
                              • It explains a few things about the clan culture, like the Agoge. You want talented, ambitious childer, but there is a history of such vampires turning on their sires. What do you do? You brainwash them as best you can, pound any square pegs into the round holes, and then require them to go away to build their own power-base... somewhere else.
                              • Guessing the motives of the killers is also a fun parlor game. Beyond the usual rebels and rivals, there's the issue of what a 3rd gen with the Ventrue weakness would eat. The Second City starts looking less like a city, and more like a farm. Maybe some of the cattle grew tired of being sent to the slaughterhouse?
                              Well, as a great idea as it would seem, having one of the main metaplot protagonists, Mithras, who appeared in 5 books as the childe of the Ventrue Antediluvian being embraced in the 12th century BC., seemed like a MAJOR plothole for Gehenna (not even mentioning Antonius or Alexander). Then the explanation for this plothole being "Ventrue is beyond life and death"... well. Criticism was inevitable.

                              - Saga

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                                Gentleman Gamer did comment on this, basically; if there was 15 years of development, the changes would have been more severe overall - And that may have been the case, but it would have come through in smaller steps.
                                This feels like a giant leap for Vampire-kind and because all of the little bits leading there weren't expounded upon as they could have been in 15 years of incremental progress. Also, traditionally the writing was (or seemed to be) influenced by the response that previous sections got. (Hence; very little follow up for the plots from Dirty Secrets of the Black hand until a V20 version came out)
                                So, if we had 15 years of writers putting in on this, we would probably have had backtracking on bits that didn't seem to work or weren't received well for plot direction before we got to the 15 years in the future version that was V5. A much more curated plot line.
                                Agree. Though, Irespectfully disagree with the Gentleman gamer on this. 15 years is not that of a long time. sure, lot of things happened, but looking at it from the perspective of history, the world isn't radically different than it was 15 years ago. In my oppinion, 15 years might have brought many smaller, incremental changes, dispersed over the years, and a very few bigger highlights, far fewer than in V5. .

                                Thing is, "the world is in turmoil" is the zeitgeist now, and the perception of lot of oh-so-important things happening increased to a nearly-insane level. But how many oh-so-important things are we remembering of, after a month? A year? Is the world really in so much turmoil, compared to the age of discoveries, 30 years war, the industrial revolution, the political upheavels of the 19th century, or the world wars? Is it more in a turmoil than it was during the early 2000's?
                                Last edited by PMárk; 01-08-2019, 08:47 PM.


                                If nothing worked, then let's think!

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