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  • #31
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
    15 years is not that of a long time. sure, lot of things happened, but looking at it from the perspective of history, the world isn't radically different than it was 15 years ago. In my oppinion, 15 years might have brought many smaller, incremental changes, dispersed over the years, and a very few bigger highlights, far fewer than in V5.
    For Vampires; and us mere mortal humans; the scope of the world as a whole hasn't changed all that much in 15 years; I completely agree.

    For a gaming line, 15 years (if it had regular releases) would be a damn long time for changes to occur, so it depends on the perspective and It could be argued that as it's the "Time of Turmoil" more stuff happens in a shorter period than before in vampire history

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    • #32
      A Doylist explanation for the recent period of tumult in vampire society.

      It's always been a bit awkward trying to keep the events of vampiric society moving forward at a fast enough pace for a publishing schedule which requires new content and plot developments at regular enough intervals to drive sales.

      Vampiric timelines, especially for those operating among elders where actual history is made, would naturally move at a glacial pace. Vampires, especially elders, are supposed to be static creatures who avoid change at all cost. Even those who aspire to dynamism tend to simply repeat the changes made for centuries in the past. So, events would naturally occur at a similarly slow pace and in small increments, spread more-or-less evenly over the timeline. Oh, for certain, there would be the occasional hiccup of punctuated equilibrium when an Antedeluvian, sect, or major city fell, but a new status quo would quickly set in.

      The publishing timeline, otoh, needs to constantly "feed the beast" as it were to drive sales.

      This results in the period during which the game existed (1991-now) looking like a mad scramble of activity. Shadow Curtain, Week of Nightmares, Vienna falls, London is depopulated, Gangrel leave, Brujah leave, Elders leave, musical chairs in LA, and dozens of cities change hands in North America. It's been an unusually busy time.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post

        Its okay. Could be a lot worse. I'm still not changing my avatar, though.


        Light inspires illusion and interpretation. Truth can only be found in darkness.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
          A Doylist explanation for the recent period of tumult in vampire society.

          It's always been a bit awkward trying to keep the events of vampiric society moving forward at a fast enough pace for a publishing schedule which requires new content and plot developments at regular enough intervals to drive sales.

          (...)

          The publishing timeline, otoh, needs to constantly "feed the beast" as it were to drive sales.

          This results in the period during which the game existed (1991-now) looking like a mad scramble of activity. Shadow Curtain, Week of Nightmares, Vienna falls, London is depopulated, Gangrel leave, Brujah leave, Elders leave, musical chairs in LA, and dozens of cities change hands in North America. It's been an unusually busy time.
          I don't think that non-V5 V:tM had what could be called a 'mad scramble' or 'unusually busy time' . It seems to me that the setting was developed, elaborated, and expanded steadily.

          In regard to the events that you mentioned :
          The Week of Nightmares I think was a legitimate exploring of one of the themes of WoD as a setting - that there would be some upheaval, disturbances, calamity, or turmoil in regard to the supernatural. Within V:tM, it was exploring and developing the setting element of ancient characters and their plots or actions. ( How well this was done is of course another question. I think it failed to be engaging and sensible, to a large extent. )
          Events in regard to the Shadow Curtain in Russia comes from at least decades, if not centuries, of lead up to them.
          The rest of the events that you mentioned are from V5.

          I don't see at all how constant changes and redefinition of the setting are needed for an RPG ( or any other games or product with a fictional setting ) to be successful. New books and other writings can be published in regard to tens - if not hundreds - of general topics ; especially in a setting as interesting, deep, and varied as the World of Darkness. Past events throughout the centuries can be described. New organizations - both small or tiny, and of great size - can be introduced, and interactions of groups with each other can be elaborated on. All sorts of activities, areas of interest, and specialties that Vampires are interested in can be looked at closer. Histories of characters can be developed in extreme detail. I think there is certainly no shortage - and there never will be - of settings elements, and possible themes, motifs, and topics, for WoD books to be written about.
          Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-10-2019, 07:23 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
            I don't see at all how constant changes and redefinition of the setting are needed for an RPG ( or any other games or product with a fictional setting ) to be successful. New books and other writings can be published in regard to tens - if not hundreds - of general topics ; especially in a setting as interesting, deep, and varied as the World of Darkness. Past events throughout the centuries can be described. New organizations - both small or tiny, and of great size - can be introduced, and interactions of groups with each other can be elaborated on. All sorts of activities, areas of interest, and specialties that Vampires are interested in can be looked at closer. Histories of characters can be developed in extreme detail. I think there is certainly no shortage - and there never will be - of settings elements, and possible themes, motifs, and topics, for WoD books to be written about.
            I agree with all of this, for a fantasy setting and without the history of book sales specifically for White Wolf

            V:TM is the modern setting; Dark ages seems to have sold well, but Victorian/Wild west/Great war all tended to have limited success.
            Regions and City books also tended to sell poorly compared to other books. (Chicago is apparently the exception)

            So from the "Making money" rather than purely artistic endeavor, they've tried with limited success; when other developments work better financially.
            That being said, when they're making enough money on the big stuff, they have put out the stuff that doesn't make a lot, but fits those needs you're talking about.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
              I don't see at all how constant changes and redefinition of the setting are needed for an RPG ( or any other games or product with a fictional setting ) to be successful.
              Because it isn't. It's just, there are always people who had problems with the existing stuff, or got bored of it, so they want a new take.

              Also the "cult of new" is a very real phenomenon. It's good, just because it's new and different. I do not agree.

              Most cases, this mentality led to disaster in the past and understandibly so.

              Otherwise I agree with what you wrote.



              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by PMárk View Post

                Because it isn't. It's just, there are always people who had problems with the existing stuff, or got bored of it, so they want a new take.

                Also the "cult of new" is a very real phenomenon. It's good, just because it's new and different. I do not agree.

                Most cases, this mentality led to disaster in the past and understandibly so.

                Otherwise I agree with what you wrote.

                Nah, the metaplot is what drove the OWoD. This is extremely clear by the large majority of the fanbase freaking out over it when it changes. That's why it changed, why it's always changed. OWoD thrives, as far as books and material goes, on the advancing metaplot.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by thebiglarpnerd View Post


                  Nah, the metaplot is what drove the OWoD. This is extremely clear by the large majority of the fanbase freaking out over it when it changes. That's why it changed, why it's always changed. OWoD thrives, as far as books and material goes, on the advancing metaplot.
                  Read again, what Muad'Dib wrote. I'm not against metaplot, I'm advocating it in games and most of the games I like have metaplot.

                  Metaplot is advancing the setting. When metaplot is used as a justification for re-writing the setting, that's another issue. See the Spellplague. FR had metaplot prior to it, yes, even with big shakeups. Yet, the Spellplague essentially re-wrote the whole, changing it essentially and suddenly, so, naturally, people took issue with it.

                  The scope and ammount of V5's changes are outside of nomal metapot advancement.

                  When there is metaplot, there's always grumbling, yes. That's part of the reason why somepeople hate it, they don't like when things change and they don't want to be "slaved" to somone else's story. For the most part, I tend to accept metaplot advancement. When the Gangrel quit, I said, "okay", because the story made sense and it was presented in a sensible way (ie. lot of them quit, but a quite large chung remained, they just didn't had a Justicar).

                  Shadowrun has metaplot too. It even changed the lookout of the game considerably, for example, with the wireless Matrix. But, for whatever reason, Catalyst would think it'd be a good idea, if in a new edition the Horrors would come back in full force, kill the dragons and ruin the tech and the setting would go to a mgical apocalypse with roaming Lovecraftian things outside, well, the story would justify it, but it wouldn't be SR, fro that on, despite retaining the name.


                  If nothing worked, then let's think!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by PMárk View Post
                    Metaplot is advancing the setting. When metaplot is used as a justification for re-writing the setting, that's another issue. See the Spellplague. FR had metaplot prior to it, yes, even with big shakeups. Yet, the Spellplague essentially re-wrote the whole, changing it essentially and suddenly, so, naturally, people took issue with it.
                    And here is (in my view) where V5 feels weird.
                    Requiem tried to be mostly neutral, run what you want. And those that liked it kept it.
                    Masquerade had a plot constantly moving forwards. You could ignore and play your owns stuff, or you could follow and much of the time have the details to play through a chronicle that affects it. Possibly not with the same characters that worked through the last ones, but the PC troop could run through it.
                    Enter plot of V5 -it happens and it's happened, no chance for seeing how, no chance to play it and not enough information to see what details you like and what you don't so that you can see where your version would diverge (without rewriting it wholesale)
                    Even the Convention of Thorns - A fixed point in time for Masquerade, can be played through in the dark ages setting and possibly manipulated a bit.
                    Playing through what would historically have been one of the biggest changes of Vampire society since before the Second Inquisition (Possibly including the SI) has been so popular that a yearly LARP has now run it 4 (?) times. In a Polish Castle, with Global attendance. Masquerade players want to be a part of the change, not just see what happened over 15 years in one sourcebook.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Illithid View Post

                      I agree with all of this, for a fantasy setting and without the history of book sales specifically for White Wolf

                      V:TM is the modern setting; Dark ages seems to have sold well, but Victorian/Wild west/Great war all tended to have limited success.
                      Regions and City books also tended to sell poorly compared to other books. (Chicago is apparently the exception)

                      So from the "Making money" rather than purely artistic endeavor, they've tried with limited success; when other developments work better financially.
                      That being said, when they're making enough money on the big stuff, they have put out the stuff that doesn't make a lot, but fits those needs you're talking about.
                      There aren't many V:tM books focused solely on the metaplot ; and even fewer if books outlining chronicles are not counted in this. Which V:tM books sold well ? Do you have a link to sales numbers information ?
                      Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-12-2019, 01:23 PM.

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                      • #41
                        I don't have a link for sales details, just insight from what writers have mentioned in forums around here. (Gentlemen Gamer as a big one on providing reasons why things do or don't work)

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