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Will Paths still be a thing or will they be completely replaced with Tenets?

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  • Will Paths still be a thing or will they be completely replaced with Tenets?

    Do you think Paths will still exist in 5th edition Sabbat, or will they be replaced completely with recommended tenets that are de facto inline with Honorable Accord or a sort of Ayn Rand flavored social darwinism? In other words, the recomended tenets for a Sabbat game would be things like "never betray your own kind" and "always strive to be superior in mind, body, and spirit".

  • #2
    Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
    Do you think Paths will still exist in 5th edition Sabbat, or will they be replaced completely with recommended tenets that are de facto inline with Honorable Accord or a sort of Ayn Rand flavored social darwinism? In other words, the recomended tenets for a Sabbat game would be things like "never betray your own kind" and "always strive to be superior in mind, body, and spirit".
    I think they'll be Loresheets as we already have the Path of Caine and Path of Lilith as loresheets.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #3
      Ah, pity, I actually kind of liked the idea of Sabbat games effectively taking place in an alternate reality where Cammies were indeed idiots for trying to restrain the beast with human morality. Then you could have Sabbat with 10 "humanity" who were basically Klingons or Ayn Rand protagonists, infiltrating Camarilla cities where vampires were going wight left and right by trying to be conventionally moral.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
        Ah, pity, I actually kind of liked the idea of Sabbat games effectively taking place in an alternate reality where Cammies were indeed idiots for trying to restrain the beast with human morality. Then you could have Sabbat with 10 "humanity" who were basically Klingons or Ayn Rand protagonists, infiltrating Camarilla cities where vampires were going wight left and right by trying to be conventionally moral.
        You probably still can as Humanity is now effectively, "How much do you have something you believe in?"

        They've already started talking about Packs as Touchstones.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          I think they'll be Loresheets as we already have the Path of Caine and Path of Lilith as loresheets.
          This approach can change or be expanded in the future with new additions. I think that characters following Paths of Enlightenment should be represented by more than a Loresheet.
          In which books are the Loresheets for the Path of Caine and the Path of Lilith written ?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Muad'Dib View Post
            This approach can change or be expanded in the future with new additions. I think that characters following Paths of Enlightenment should be represented by more than a Loresheet.
            In which books are the Loresheets for the Path of Caine and the Path of Lilith written ?
            I think it's in the Camarilla book and Anarch.

            But basically, they're bonuses for your Humanity system and also rites.

            So, it's actually incorporated into the Humanity system.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #7
              Where was Packs as touchstones mentioned? Makes sense of course.

              Personally I hope paths do come through in some specific way, rather than just write your own morals. There was always some tenets that made a path murder to maintain, like no frenzy, or being nice or something that you just end up doing. I like those unavoidable wildcards thrown in. Loresheets gets part of the way, but misses the drawbacks of being a path follower. Following a path isn’t just about being evil, it’s abour strict morality, and. Strict codes always have a breaking point.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                I think it's in the Camarilla book and Anarch.

                But basically, they're bonuses for your Humanity system and also rites.

                So, it's actually incorporated into the Humanity system.
                Any page numbers? They don't come up in searches.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                  Any page numbers? They don't come up in searches.
                  Never mind. I've found them. They're in the core book for V5, although they aren't referred to as paths.

                  The first thing I note is that level 3 of the Bahari one suggests diablerising your childe. I'm not sure how faithful that is to Bahari lore. Lilith was devastated when her children were destroyed. The old Path of Lilith forbade killing because it denied the opportunity to grow or develop through further pain.

                  I would potentially flip that one to devouring your sire or some other figure that tries to control you. That way, at least, it still enshrines Lilith's favourite behaviour of sticking it to those who would control her.

                  Though maybe it needs to go altogether. It still doesn't feel right having cannibalism enshrined within the Bahari ideology--it comes from nowhere. I much prefer the idea that Bahari would seek to create more life (whether a garden or new vampires and ghouls). Maybe there's something there that can replace the third dot?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                    I think they'll be Loresheets as we already have the Path of Caine and Path of Lilith as loresheets.
                    Those aren't Paths in the mechanical sense of an alternate Morality, which supersedes Humanity. They are a collection of Advantages which can be purchased. Some are supernatural quirks. Some are grounded in the social structure and reputation of the faction represented.

                    For example, the Bahari Loresheet:
                    1. Bonus to Intimidate because people fear members of the Bahari.
                    2. Self-harm to increase willpower.
                    3. Farm your childer for discipline xp.
                    4. Increase resilience stats with menstrual blood.
                    5. Limited day-walking ability. Obvious Predator. Psychic damage shield vs. Auspex.
                    None of these make the Bahari less likely to lose Humanity and enter Wassail. None of them even tweak the rules regarding Tenets, Convictions, or Touchstones. The closest they get is number 2, which effectively adds a permanent, additional Desire: "Cause yourself aggravated damage".

                    The simplest way to run Paths would be to allow an advantage called Path Follower. It would allow the vampire to substitute out one belief of the Path for one chronicle Tenet for each dot in the advantage.

                    Alternately, Paths could just be unusual Convictions. Based on the name, Convictions sound like an additional restriction on character behavior over and above the Tenets. In some sense, this is true since going against them can inflict Stains. However, they also serve as a sort of excuse for why a chronicle Tenet was broken. They prevent Stains from chronicle Tenets being applied in the first place.

                    So, a follower of the Path of Honorable Accord could be built with the following three Convictions:
                    • Without honor, we are nothing but the Beast. Always keep your word, repay your debts, and treat others in manner appropriate to their station.
                    • You must pursue your group's goals regardless of human morality.
                    • Show your devotion to your group through absolute obedience to its leaders, unfailing fraternity to its members, and heartfelt ardor for its rituals.
                    A follower of the Path of the Beast:
                    • Human conceptions of sin and virtue warp the natural wisdom of animal instinct. Never allow abstract morality to prevent you from hunting, surviving, or defending what is yours.
                    • Apex predators have no time for distractions like mercy and cruelty, fear and bravado, or disloyalty and false devotion.
                    • The comforts and luxuries of human society are a trap. Do not become dependent on them, for they weaken you.
                    The main stumbling block to building a Path follower using this existing mechanic is the rule that Touchstones must be mortal humans. Allow TSs to be other people, places or things, and you're all set. This could be done mechanically through an advantage, bought in the usual way.

                    With this tweak, a vampire on Honorable Accord might choose their Bishop, their favorite sword, and an original copy of the Code of the Milan as their Touchstones. A vampire on Beast might choose the copse of trees where they sleep, a hunting falcon they cherish, and a mentor who taught them to hunt.

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                    • #11
                      Basically, yes, because Humanity no longer is Humanity.

                      In V5, Humanity is "anything that keeps you from becoming a mindless animal that has no consciousness beyond feeding."

                      So, Paths are now folded into Humanity.

                      Loresheets would be now better for the use of them as religion and theologies of how you express your humanity.

                      Which I think works much better with the game's themes.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #12
                        Only if you completely ignore Humanity's description and for you Humanity is just a bunch of Tenets and Convictions. In which case yes path could be introduced in some degrees altough they still face some hurdle to overcome.

                        Also as other said if the Bahari Loresheet is supposed to represent a Path then it is quite terrible at it. I know it is not very clear but even tough Humanity is quite versatile in V5 there are still some actions that would ALWAYS cause stains on you no matter the Tenets or Convictions you possess. Two of those being Embracing someone and Diablerie (which makes you automatically lose a point of Humanity and perhaps more if you roll badly)

                        So a Bahari who abuses Sacrifice the Children will quickly hit wassail. In fact this is perhaps the fastest way to fall into wassail in V5. Or at the very least be a low humanity if they follow their faiths "Tenets" without abusing them much.

                        And stay there considering how it is nigh impossible to recover Humanity in the new system which makes you pay new level x10 !! And only if you try to repent and act tries to do some good (very path compatible indeed).

                        Altough that might be the actual devs intention for Paths. Creating Loresheets to give bonuses/incentives for low Humanity vampires. We shall see.

                        Oh and by the way where is the Path of Caine loresheet ? I only found the Cainite heresy one and I hope you did not confuse the two because they have nothing to do with each others.
                        Last edited by Morbus; 01-05-2019, 06:57 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Humanity in 5E is completely overhauled and much for the better.

                          But yes, we need more systems for making it work.

                          I do think that Diablerie and Embracing should always lower your Path because they're gamebreaking elements.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #14
                            Humanity got more versatile but it did not change as much as suprisingly many in the community think it did. Here's part of the description:

                            The Downward Spiral
                            Vampires are monsters, have no doubt, and even a
                            Kindred with the highest of Humanity scores remains nothing more than a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
                            Nonetheless, as Humanity erodes, vampires not only
                            become capable of, but also actively pursue, evermore depraved acts. It is in a vampire’s nature to
                            hunt and to kill, and eventually every vampire finds
                            themselves holding the corpse of a vessel they had
                            not intended to murder.
                            It is important, then, to know how vampires
                            change as their Humanity scores deteriorate and less
                            and less connects them with their origins. Vampires’
                            behavior can become so utterly depraved and alien
                            that the very thought of them causes discomfort in
                            others


                            And if you read what Humanity's level as supposed to represent it is almost copy pasted from previous editions. It's clearly not intended to be able to play a Humanity 8 serial-killer for exemple. And even less a inhuman path follower who somehow gets high humanity.

                            Now don't get me wrong the more Human roads/paths can almost seamlessly be integrated into Humanity. Like Roads of Chivalry for exemple or Road of Paradise.

                            Many Paths however aren't like the aforementioned Path of Cain which eshew contact with mortals (and thus you should get stains for having Touchstones) and urge you to diablerise Kindreds with high Humanity or Path of Blood which also promulgate Diablerie.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post

                              Never mind. I've found them. They're in the core book for V5, although they aren't referred to as paths.

                              The first thing I note is that level 3 of the Bahari one suggests diablerising your childe. I'm not sure how faithful that is to Bahari lore. Lilith was devastated when her children were destroyed. The old Path of Lilith forbade killing because it denied the opportunity to grow or develop through further pain.

                              I would potentially flip that one to devouring your sire or some other figure that tries to control you. That way, at least, it still enshrines Lilith's favourite behaviour of sticking it to those who would control her.

                              Though maybe it needs to go altogether. It still doesn't feel right having cannibalism enshrined within the Bahari ideology--it comes from nowhere. I much prefer the idea that Bahari would seek to create more life (whether a garden or new vampires and ghouls). Maybe there's something there that can replace the third dot?
                              Now, how that went through editing? Didn't they check the former lore at all, when writing it?


                              If nothing worked, then let's think!

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