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  • True Faith revisited

    So one of my Kindred NPCs has true faith 4 and I have a True Faith hunter with level 5.

    With the multiple sources I have I amalgamed all the true faith material into one house rule section. Tell me what you guys think.

    There are multiple types of supernaturals in this story.

    True Faith Level One (21 XP) ~ Each level of True Faith adds one dot to Willpower and Virtue rolls. Each level acts as Countermagic Thaumaturgy against evil effects. Each level provides one soak rating against magical effects. Finally: Brandishing a holy symbol against an evil supernatural being keeps them at bay. Touching an evil supernatural being with that holy symbol causes aggravated damage equal to your True Faith level. (Requires Humanity 9 or above)

    True Faith Level Two (21 XP) ~ You may spend 1 Willpower to negate all supernatural influence for one scene, even ones affecting you currently. (Requires True Faith Level One)

    True Faith Level Three (21 XP) ~ You can now perform miracles. You are immune to the effects of other True Faith users at your discretion, should you be a supernatural being. Once per day you can heal another being by rolling True Faith(damage type is irrelevant). This may bring a recently killed being back to life. You can sanctify an area or object as hallowed. You can gain visions of the future or past. You may remove curses on others, but not yourself. (Requires True Faith Level Two)

    True Faith Level Four (21 XP) ~ You are not affected by any type of supernatural mental effects such as blood bonds, Dominate, Obfuscate, and Presence. (Requires True Faith Level Three)

    True Faith Level Five (21 XP) ~ You may impose Penance on all supernaturals who can see you. When activated, they must flee your presence if able. To resist, the supernatural must spend a Willpower and succeed on a Willpower roll (difficulty 5+their Intelligence). Botching causes aggravated damage as per the Level One version of True Faith. (Requires True Faith Level Four)

  • #2
    My background is with Mage and Wraith where the characters are not necessarily "evil" but can be perceived as such as night folk.

    Metaphysically, where do you believe true faith comes from? I ask because I'm curious if the determination of "evil" is made by some standard you set or by some standard the character sets. The ability to soak against magickal effects especially for your level 5 character would put them on par with a HIT Mark in terms of their ability to absorb damage but they'd be trivially killed with a gun or sword. The agg damage ability seems like that character would quickly be targeted by whatever resources could be mustered to kill them. The 1 dot version seems that a double tap with a cross could reduce an arbitrary kindred to ashes.

    Getting to True Faith level 4 is the same XP (84) as getting a Mage to 4 dots in a non-specialty sphere. That seems about fair but I suppose true faith in a high supernaturals story may be better than just having 4 dots of forces. Do you have a mechanism of personal growth or can a player just buy an extra dot to get there?

    The resurrection power seems OP especially if it can heal agg damage. I could see it only working against agg or lethal damage inflicted by what fits as "evil".

    Feels like there should be a "detect" option otherwise getting stabbed by someone seems like a dealkiller.

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    • #3
      What do you want True Faith represent? Does Faith in an of itself have power or is it just "getting the attention" of God?

      Comment


      • #4
        Following the Cain and Abel story this true faith would represent deeper connection to God. Especially considering there are demons and angels in this setting. Plus other hunters are imbued. From my setting I confirmed imbued hunters are imbued by Uriel, the angel from the garden of Eden. And true faith people would be imbued directly by God.

        Idk what a HIT Mark is.

        The poke with a cross ability isn’t as cool as it sounds. It’s just 1 to 5 dice of agg damage. Plus it’s beatable logically. A player from a different game just grabbed random sharp objects and hurled them at a true faith hunter and killed him mundanley.

        My mechanic for growth is xp and in game justification. For that big of a leap it’d have to be huge.

        Maybe resurrection should only apply to supernatural damage and effects. That’s pretty legit. Lotta stories do that. “I can only bring those back from the dead who were killed by supernatural means. Your girlfriend was shot by a gun...”

        Many hunters get taken out for being careless.

        If I was to allow a player to take this, they’d have to be cautious because inflicting harm can degenerate humanity for kindred.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
          So one of my Kindred NPCs has true faith 4 and I have a True Faith hunter with level 5.
          That's a lot of Faith for a vampire, but okay. Is this an antagonist of the pcs? Mentor? Oh, and what setting is this... V20? V5?

          Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
          With the multiple sources I have I amalgamed all the true faith material into one house rule section. Tell me what you guys think.
          Awesome. I have liked some of your houserules and story ideas before.

          Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
          There are multiple types of supernaturals in this story.
          Please elaborate. Exactly what supernatural types are the pcs? Major npcs?

          Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
          True Faith Level One (21 XP) ~ Each level of True Faith adds one dot to Willpower and Virtue rolls. Each level acts as Countermagic Thaumaturgy against evil effects. Each level provides one soak rating against magical effects. Finally: Brandishing a holy symbol against an evil supernatural being keeps them at bay. Touching an evil supernatural being with that holy symbol causes aggravated damage equal to your True Faith level. (Requires Humanity 9 or above)
          The elephant in the room: define evil.

          Otherwise, you could probably stop there and have a decent Faith system, since it scales with the rating.

          Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
          True Faith Level Two (21 XP) ~ You may spend 1 Willpower to negate all supernatural influence for one scene, even ones affecting you currently. (Requires True Faith Level One)
          This needs a lot of defining. No, really. A lot.

          Clan flaws are a supernatural influence, can they be blocked?

          Is this all or nothing? Meaning can they select to block some supernatural stuff while allowing others? NB: a 200 year old person walking around is a supernatural effect!

          Would this undo Vicissitude mods and other powers that are supernatural at the time the power is used, but going forward is just how the world is?

          What about area affect powers, like Weather Control, Obtenebration darkness, or Lure of Flames Conflagration? Does it stop the whole effect, or just make the Faith-holder immune?

          Blood bonds are a supernatural influence. Are they suppressed? Vinculi? Would this void a Sabbat pack's loyalty for a scene?

          Since you say there is crossover, how does this interact with chimera from Changeling? Static effects from Mage? Does it force Garou into breed form?


          Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
          True Faith Level Three (21 XP) ~ You can now perform miracles. You are immune to the effects of other True Faith users at your discretion, should you be a supernatural being. Once per day you can heal another being by rolling True Faith(damage type is irrelevant). This may bring a recently killed being back to life. You can sanctify an area or object as hallowed. You can gain visions of the future or past. You may remove curses on others, but not yourself. (Requires True Faith Level Two)
          In general, this is way too vague and way too powerful. In the hands of some players, this would look like infinite wishes.

          Healing... does that allow a vampire to feed, heal the vessel's blood back, feed, repeat for infinite blood? Does ressurrection alow the vamp to drain someone, and refill them with 10 bps?

          What does "hallowed" mean in a mechanical sense.

          Remove curses? Like... clan flaws?

          Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
          True Faith Level Four (21 XP) ~ You are not affected by any type of supernatural mental effects such as blood bonds, Dominate, Obfuscate, and Presence. (Requires True Faith Level Three)
          This looks more like Faith 2.

          Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
          True Faith Level Five (21 XP) ~ You may impose Penance on all supernaturals who can see you. When activated, they must flee your presence if able. To resist, the supernatural must spend a Willpower and succeed on a Willpower roll (difficulty 5+their Intelligence). Botching causes aggravated damage as per the Level One version of True Faith. (Requires True Faith Level Four)
          Wait. All supernaturals? Not all supernaturals are "evil". Mages of the Celestial Chorus? Supernaturals with True Faith? Seelie Boggans and Pookah? Imbued Hunters? Good humans with minor Numina?

          Comment


          • #6
            This is v20. Faith 4 vamp is a potential mentor.

            Players are vampires. I have nearly every type of supernatural sprinkled into the setting.

            Evil is up to the storyteller. Obviously low humanity vampires fall into this category. Humanity 8 is immune to this.

            Level 2 ~ I meant to say supernatural mental effects on themselves only. Just like a lesser version of level 4. If you read hunter the reckoning it’s the same idea when the imbued hunter throws up their immunity.

            Level 3 ~ healing: I caveat one a day so it can’t be exploited. Plus draining a vessel is a humanity breach. So you’d lose your power if you try to abuse this.

            Hallowed (or blessed) is a feature referenced in a plethora of other flaws, merits, clan weaknesses, etc. So mechanically you could set a condition for other effects. Maybe phrase it in a way that only one or faith rating places/items to restrict people from walking everywhere blessing pennies and dollars.

            Curses ~ think I should change that to lesser curses. Since vampirism is a curse I don’t want that to be exploited. And removing clan curses inflicted by Cain would break the game imo.

            Level 4 ~ just supposed to be stronger version of level 2.

            Level 5 ~ yes. Meant evil only.

            Thanks for the critique.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
              Following the Cain and Abel story this true faith would represent deeper connection to God. Especially considering there are demons and angels in this setting. Plus other hunters are imbued. From my setting I confirmed imbued hunters are imbued by Uriel, the angel from the garden of Eden. And true faith people would be imbued directly by God.

              Idk what a HIT Mark is.

              The poke with a cross ability isn’t as cool as it sounds. It’s just 1 to 5 dice of agg damage. Plus it’s beatable logically. A player from a different game just grabbed random sharp objects and hurled them at a true faith hunter and killed him mundanley.

              My mechanic for growth is xp and in game justification. For that big of a leap it’d have to be huge.

              Maybe resurrection should only apply to supernatural damage and effects. That’s pretty legit. Lotta stories do that. “I can only bring those back from the dead who were killed by supernatural means. Your girlfriend was shot by a gun...”

              Many hunters get taken out for being careless.

              If I was to allow a player to take this, they’d have to be cautious because inflicting harm can degenerate humanity for kindred.


              Lets go with the Axioms of the God of your setting. IS he a crap sack imperfect creator or is everything "all a part of a greater plan" Are all other religions then by their nature wrong?

              Comment


              • #8
                Without starting a theological war: for my setting I’m keeping the vagueality that the original writers say. But I will keep that it’s a power bestowment based on understanding and relationship to the creator. As far as other religions are concerned each is just an view point and understanding. Kuejin being an example of spirituality. Demon the fallen being another. So religion is just a tool to educate(if legit) or control(if unlegit example lasombra). Real world examples also show overlap for stuff like angels, demons, miracles, disasters, etc. Great stuff for story plots too.

                Clear as mud?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post

                  Evil is up to the storyteller. Obviously low humanity vampires fall into this category. Humanity 8 is immune to this.
                  What about Vampires on Roads, or on Paths of Enlightenment ?
                  What if a person is not somebody who would count as evil for the purpose of these special abilities, but is trying to do an evil ( if this term is used at all ) deed at a particular moment or period of time ? Assuming that this counts for the purpose of these special abilities - do intentions, or just the actions, matter in such a case ?
                  Last edited by Muad'Dib; 01-13-2019, 12:16 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Go back to rule 1: the storyteller determines all.

                    If I remember correctly you have to drop your humanity to 1 just to take a road. So yes, you are evil.

                    Evil intent is evil. You risk humanity loss at level 10 just for having selfish thoughts. So yes to that too.

                    But for my game. Humanity 8 vampires wouldn’t get hurt by true faith cause they’re more humane then the average kine.

                    Funny story. Random encounter occurred where a hunter shows up while a vampire is on the prowl to hunt. He runs into a player with high humanity and a lot of merits to appear human. He walks past them, cordial greeting, then walks away without incident.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You have a half-decent system there for True Faith.

                      I admit, though, the whole discussion of "evil acts" and "evil people" is why I don't allow TF for pcs, and don't explain what's going on on the rare occasions an npc has TF.

                      For me... and ymmv... the WoD is not about black and white, good and evil morality. It's so deep into grey and gray morality, it often lands in black and grey territory. V5, though it's a bit early to tell for certain with recent events, jumped over to evil vs evil.

                      In this context, I find it difficult to run systems in which mechanics rely on the existence of a clear division between good and evil. If it works for you, awesome. I just find it muddies things up for me.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
                        Go back to rule 1: the storyteller determines all.

                        If I remember correctly you have to drop your humanity to 1 just to take a road. So yes, you are evil.

                        Evil intent is evil. You risk humanity loss at level 10 just for having selfish thoughts. So yes to that too.

                        But for my game. Humanity 8 vampires wouldn’t get hurt by true faith cause they’re more humane then the average kine.

                        Funny story. Random encounter occurred where a hunter shows up while a vampire is on the prowl to hunt. He runs into a player with high humanity and a lot of merits to appear human. He walks past them, cordial greeting, then walks away without incident.


                        I am personally prone to go the other way, but then I go with the interpretation that True Faith is just another Power. And that Faith isn't an unalloyed good and has dragged plenty of Kindred whole heartedly into wasail

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                        • #13
                          I’ve heard many debates about that too.

                          A player brought up the Mark of Caine merit to me. I was unaware of it previously. It’s basically discount true faith lite for worshipers of Caine.

                          Morality debate aside. I keep this as a bestowed power. And bestowed powers most of the time have constant requirements from their provider, regardless of source.

                          It’s working out for my story so far.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Pnizzle View Post
                            I’ve heard many debates about that too.

                            A player brought up the Mark of Caine merit to me. I was unaware of it previously. It’s basically discount true faith lite for worshipers of Caine.

                            Morality debate aside. I keep this as a bestowed power. And bestowed powers most of the time have constant requirements from their provider, regardless of source.

                            It’s working out for my story so far.
                            As long as it works for your themes go for it. It does lead into some questions about ambuguity and why God grants true faith and also the curse of caine but honestly that mystery could be important to your campaign

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                            • #15
                              Yeah. I have a subplot revolving around morality on this.
                              Two imbued hunters who are duck holes roll into town and cause trouble. Some newly awakened hunter with entirely different power doesn’t have a clue what’s going on, but has an unknown previous relation with a vampire.
                              He’s looking into her disappearance.
                              Players eventually have a verbal bout with the two hunters, trying to convince the new hunter about what and who is evil.
                              I let the new hunter’s personality develop based on that result.
                              It’ll have an effect later, no spoilers.

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