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  • Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
    It would require a monumental suspension of disbelief to think that Jackson, a 34 years old neonate of the 8th generation has even the slightest chance against a 7th gen Ventrue, 5 time his age and that was feared by the Black Hand and considered the most powerful and dread prince of the United States along with Marcus Vitel.
    I had this conversation once with some players:

    Player #1: Who do we think would win in a straight up [NPC #1] v. [NPC #2] fight?
    Two are about the same age, right?

    Player #2: In a straight up fight, [NPC #1] would destroy [NPC #2], I'd wager. Consider their pedigree and generation, and that [NPC #1] has a reputation (deservedly?) that puts him above his age-related peers such as [another character] and [another character]
    But nothing is every a straight up fight. Not with Kindred.

    Me: [Your PC] knows all-too well. His fights with [PC #2] and [PC #3] were anything but straight

    Player #2: Exactly
    If you expect to fight straight up and on the square, you're gonna lose.

    Me: Yep. [PC #2] had a bad habit of picking fights where the odds were stacked against him though
    He walked into both the [your PC] and [an NPC] fights with a ton of unhealed damage, even after [your PC]/[another NPC] let him feed on the blood dolls to even the odds

    Player #2: In a straight up fight, [PC #3] would annihilate [my PC].
    Wise odds would strongly, strongly favor [PC #2] too.
    And of course, this potential fight between [NPC #1] and [NPC #2] is anything but fair.
    This is [NPC #2's] turf, or more properly the turf of his patrons, which include both [NPC #1's] sire and a really old elder (and potentially others if one includes the Setites)

    Player #1: Never thought of it that way

    Player #2: Yep.
    Wheels within wheels.
    There's no such thing as a fair fight in the World of Darkness. Lodin might have higher stats than Kevin Jackson, but Kevin is prince. His reign isn't absolute, but he has vastly more allies, servants, and resources to draw upon than Lodin does. Kevin has a thousand and one ways to stack the deck in his favor, and the odds of them both duking it out in a white room where only their own stats matter are pretty low. On top of that, Lodin is a certified nutjob and will make suboptimal decisions with the few advantages he enjoys.

    It's pretty easy for me to see him getting chucked out the window.

    Lodin's power was more a matter of perception and politics than raw supernatural might anyway. Marcus Vitel ruled his city more or less absolutely, but Lodin was always the primogen's bitch. It was mainly the size and prosperity of his domain (largest Camarilla in the U.S. for a while) and ability to politic fairly well that made his name well-known.


    Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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    • Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
      There's no such thing as a fair fight in the World of Darkness. Lodin might have higher stats than Kevin Jackson, but Kevin is prince. His reign isn't absolute, but he has vastly more allies, servants, and resources to draw upon than Lodin does. Kevin has a thousand and one ways to stack the deck in his favor, and the odds of them both duking it out in a white room where only their own stats matter are pretty low. On top of that, Lodin is a certified nutjob and will make suboptimal decisions with the few advantages he enjoys.

      It's pretty easy for me to see him getting chucked out the window.

      Lodin's power was more a matter of perception and politics than raw supernatural might anyway. Marcus Vitel ruled his city more or less absolutely, but Lodin was always the primogen's bitch. It was mainly the size and prosperity of his domain (largest Camarilla in the U.S. for a while) and ability to politic fairly well that made his name well-known.
      When Elders Attack!

      We're also discussing the issue of whether Lodin is just going to show up in Kevin Jackson's office like he's in an episode of EMPIRE. You know, when Kevin Jackson turns on the light and then Lodin turns his swivel chair around to DRAMATICALLY REVEAL HIMSELF. Also, are we talking "Crazy Hobo Lodin" or "Magnificent Bastard" Lodin.

      Played by Alexander Skarskgard in his second vampire role.



      One of the things that comes up in my games often enough (and in my writing) is that whenever an Elder gets in a fight to the Final Death then things have gone catastrophically wrong. It's something I discuss when people talk about how vampires versus werewolf fights go.

      My general opinion is that almost no vampire will voluntarily get into a "fair fight." Karsh is like the one exception in the entire vampire universe and that's what's makes him an exception. Given he can also kill anything short of a pack of Rank 5 werewolves himself anyway, that's not really fighting fair anyway. Even the Sabbat isn't really an exception because shovelheads EXIST so the rest of the Sabbat can't fight fair (and why most Sabbat gang up on people in packs).

      Generally, all vampires will do their best to attack people sideways--especially Elder vampires. They go after businesses, friends, associates, Retainers, and so on. When vampires go to war with Garou, Garou kill vampires in their havens. Vampires have people blow up their cars, do drive bys with silver bullets, harrass their kinfolk, and poison their caerns with toxic waste.
      Crazy Hobo Lodin might go after Jackson directly and that makes him dangerous. However, Older Lodin would probably do something much-much nastier because he's a former Prince and to destroy a Prince you drive him crazy first.

      * Lodin would probably kill Jackson's mortal family members.
      * Lodin might lure back a brother and diablerize him to get himself back up to snuff.
      * Lodin might convince another brother that Jackson is plotting against him.
      * Lodin might also reveal to the Anarchs about the List.

      I try and make things as much "headgames, casual sadism, and Godfather-esque plotting" as possible.

      Re: Lodin and the Primogen

      To be fair to Lodin, while it's easy to say he was the Primogen's puppet, that wasn't strictly the case. The Primogen made it clear that Lodin had to accomadate all of their needs. Whenever they wanted to sire, they sired. Whenever they wanted territory, he gave them territory. Whenever Critias wanted to host a meeting of the Illuminati then Lodin had to allow it. He also had to attend all of Annabelle's stupid parties.

      However aside from "You can't mess with our shit" it wasn't like the Primogen actually was ever going to agree on anything. Lodin feared the primogen but not necessarily any individual one if the others didn't back them up. They were the Commission of the Mob and he was just the most well known face of the mob in New York City (Gotti for instance). Barring moving against them, Lodin was still going to be the guy that most players had to deal with. Unless they had a Primogen's favor, they were basically open game.

      It's probably why Lodin hated the Anarchs so much because they at least allowed him to express his anger (but even he couldn't order a Blood Hunt on Juggler because he was Tyler's bitch).
      Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-05-2019, 09:46 AM.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Adventure Hook: Smithers would die for Mr. Burns

        If I were to use Crazy Hobo Lodin, I'd probably have the player characters hired by Edward Neally to go investigate the rumors. He doesn't want the PCs to kill Lodin (yet) and wants them to just lead him to him.

        I'd have Neally then tell Lodin he's no longer Blood Bonded to him and that he's free.

        Then I'd have Lodin convince Neally to commit suicide by diablerie.

        Just to have show Lodin, even in his diminished state, can break a vampire's will like that (no Dominate necessary but playing on how well he knows Neally).

        Then, if the players let him, Lodin will be healed and Neally "free."


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Coteries

          We're now getting into the group section of the book. We're past the lion's share of game material and will probably finish the book by the end of the month. I'm debating whether or not to do a review of Beckett's Jyhad Diary after this but hope people will maybe be willing to follow me for a review of that as well.

          As for coteries? I've always felt Coteries were something for young vampires and part of the War of Ages. Elders don't have Coteries for the most part. There's a precious few couple of relationships an Elder will cherish across the countries that doesn't get their friend killed, Blood Bonded, or betrayed but for the most part--the older you are, the less you care. Annabelle may have a hundred friends, pawns, and servants but she has no peers she can love or rely on.

          This isn't the same for Neonates and Neonate Coteries are things that allow them to survive the wrath of Elders. In my games, a coterie is an implicit promise. If someone is screwing with your shit then you will help them sort it out and that gives Elder vampires pause (even Princes sometimes).

          It's just convenient that also resembles the traditional adventuring party. Coterie members don't have to like each other--they just have to have each other's back.

          The Anarch Center

          Type: Group

          Synopsis: The Barony of East Chicago, the Anarchs of Chicago, and the Resistance.

          Review: Surprise, surprise, this is going to take me awhile to do because it's the very small (comparatively) section of the book that deals with the Anarchs in Chicago. You know, the section of the book I care about most. Obviously, the Anarchs are a big part of 5E and I give the creators props for giving them as much attention as they have. However, I admit what I'm most looking forward to from the expansions are THE ANARCH section of The Chicago Folio and the Gary section of Let the Streets Run Red.

          So what are the Anarchs of Chicago like? Generally, the depiction of them is that they're a fairly mellow branch of the Anarchs by comparison to the rest of the Movement. The implications are this is the "Moderate" Anarch movement (if such a thing exists) and they're not interested in overthrowing Kevin Jackson. I'm inclined to blame this attitude on Maldavis equally as they mostly just want to be left alone to do their own thing. The Civil Rights era influenced Anita and Maldavis and they wanted equality not revolution. This is a contrast to Jeremy MacNeil and Salvador who were influenced by Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Spanish Civil War respectively.

          Juggler is apparently still alive and has been exiled from the Anarch Center due to a failed coup de tat attempt against a Prince "nearly" 30 years ago. Which implies that he actually attempted to overthrow Lodin either around the time of 1st edition or before the events of Baptism by Fire. I think the timeline is probably off on that and I think it should be "nearly 20 years ago" as it would make him attempting to become Prince of the City after Lodin's death--which feels more likely to me. It would also explain why he went from being a powerful Anarch in 2nd Edition to having no friends and being a complete outcast and loser in Dust to Dust.

          One interesting element is that the Anarchs don't operate out of Chicago but East Chicago, Indiana. This is an unfortunate bit of timing because East Chicago has a "state of emergency" where arsenic and lead poisoning is afflicting a large part of the town. I don't feel inclined to exploit real life tragedies for stories but a part of me does feel like you could do a "werewolves and Anarchs against Pentex" story--possibly donating $20 to the relief efforts whenever you do.

          East Chicago is basically Gary Redux in my opinion and not a terribly bad place for it. At least in the context of "place for Anarchs to be outside the Prince's influence but close enough to drive." Gary, itself, isn't quite appropriate for a proper base for an Anarch resistance to Chicago. However, East Chicago is a small town within driving distance that you could easily see the Anarchs having taken over and made their domain. I can see Kevin Jackson having basically made it his unofficial policy to have "built a wall" with the idea that Anarchs in Chicago take their life into their own hands but he won't chase them over state lines. Sadly, Chicago has the Succubus Club and Red No. 5 so I don't see this policy working at all.

          Anita Wainwright is established as the Baron of East Chicago, which is a bit like Juggler's title in that it is important among Anarchs but paltry to the actual rulership of Chicago itself. Anita is also a leader who resents the fact that she's considered something of a place holder for Maldavis. She doesn't have control over Gengis (who seems to think HE is the Anarchs leader--but is closer to Sheriff). In short, surpriise, surprise, the Anarchs are fractured with three potential leaders and Anita not really wanting to take anyone in.

          It's a situation ripe for change, especially with the PCs entering into things and potentially changing the power structure completely. They could support one of the three leaders (honestly, Anita is the only one who won't lead things to ruin--Maldavis is not portrayed positively at all) or they could assume control themselves. I also note that "Jackson's List" means it's a prime tool to reveal and cause the entirety of the group to rise up and unite in killing him. Because, well, it shows that they are being hunted for extermination. It'll also be the end of Gengis.

          I will admit, I am not a fan of the name.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-05-2019, 11:09 AM.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            It was his original name in my campaign so I'm splitting the difference. He just was a vampire when he came to Chicago and set things up, inviting his mortal family.

            While it's obviously not actual history, this version of Chicago was founded by Maxwell after becoming a Kindred and having a lot more resources at his beck and call at the start. His efforts being what attracted Menele rather than the reverse. He was essentially a Kindred that had the view of, "if I'm going to have a good honest civilization like Carthage then I'll make it myself." Mind you, the PCs heard this from Maxwell himself or about him so they took it with a grain of sault.
            I like that story. Menele could have attracted Maxwell to Chicago, but in the end most methuselahs would rather just suborn existing Kindred and take over their work.

            I generally rule that some vampires are ridiculously overpowered for their age because some are just extra-powerful. It's a way of excusing the way PCs can rise to incredible power in a very short amount of time (or the PC from Bloodlines). That also justifies some vampire prodigies like, ironically enough, both Lodin and Maldavis who are both those kind of "super powerful vampires for their age."
            Maldavis' exceptional powers had a specific rationale, interestingly enough. The primogen were mentioned as having fed her their (super potent) blood, which was what caused her to develop such an astounding array of Disciplines (and possibly all-around high traits). I think there was another reference to her losing most of those powers after the primogen deserted her, but still retaining a few of them.

            It was an interesting concept that simply drinking elder blood, no diablerie involved, could make neonates more powerful. I don't think any later books revisited it.


            Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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            • One thing they hinted at Damien was the fact that he had a ridiculous collection of high level Disciplines for his age because he was 6th generation. So that even just having old potent blood also made you accumulate power faster.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • Some Anarch Center, thoughts. These are canon in my game but I'm open to thoughts.

                * A better name would be "The Chicago Anarchs", "The South Side Gang" (reference to the Irish Mob), or "The Revolution."

                * Anita Wainwright actually has connections to the National Anarch Movement that wants to invade Chicago and kill Kevin Jackson, doubly so if he gets the Lasombra to join. Anita is actually fairly ambivalent about this.

                * I imagine that Damien is causing a serious split in the team. Some view him as a pure traitor that needs to be killed but others are having a surprising un-Kindred-like denial about his Face Heel Turn and think he must have a reason for killing the people he is.

                * Jackson turns a blind eye to the Anarchs who feed in the Rack because he prefers them to be out in the open than sneaking in. Everywhere else is not met so nicely.

                * Critias has killed numerous Anarchs that were attempting to defect to the Camarilla or actually learn the Traditions, some with frenzies and maybe even diablerie. Anita recommended some of her friends to learn from him and would be horrified to find out he's a monster.

                * Bobby Weatherbottom is a bigger danger to the Camarilla than anyone ever imagined as he was actually one of the 8-Kindred who compromised "The Red Sign."

                * Ballard didn't lose his 100+ million dollar fortune in cash to chance--Bobby Weatherbottom targeted him directly and no one even suspects.

                * Juggler's coup failed because Patricia Bollingbrook was behind it and planned to make herself Prince. She had to hightail it out of the city instead due to the discovery of her Sabbat ties.

                * Lodin is watching the Anarchs with his street kids and part of him thinks he could use them to kill Jackson or his other brood. He's not sure how he'd even begin to go about that as long as Maldavis lives, though.

                * Marc Levensque is deeply in love with Anita Wainwright and wants to become her lover like he was with his grandsire. Anita is completely ignoring this, possibly deliberately as shes trying to do the same with her Dooley substitute.

                * Theodore Dooley isn't dead. He defected to the Sabbat to save his own life and is actually the head of a particularly nasty Pack. He was never the toughest Kindred but he was always smarter and more charismatic.

                * Among the Anarchs Kevin Jackson has had assassinated were Andrei, Carlyle, Jasper Krevets, Raymond Wallace, Victoria Longwood, and Joshua Tarnpolski. The latter would particularly be horrifying to a lot of them since he was a surrogate sire.

                * Damien's murder of Joshua "Blackjack" Tarnopolski would be his Moral Event Horizon to most Kindred.

                * Malcolm has been funneling Kindred FROM Milwaukee to East Chicago and Gary. Many of the former Anarchs there are eager to take a new city.

                * Rudi and Agata Starak are in town, trying to figure out how to radicalize the Anarchs. They want Maldavis as a natioanl leader but she seems too broken and hesitant to use (this is actually due to Helena's influence).


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post

                  I like that story. Menele could have attracted Maxwell to Chicago, but in the end most methuselahs would rather just suborn existing Kindred and take over their work.



                  Maldavis' exceptional powers had a specific rationale, interestingly enough. The primogen were mentioned as having fed her their (super potent) blood, which was what caused her to develop such an astounding array of Disciplines (and possibly all-around high traits). I think there was another reference to her losing most of those powers after the primogen deserted her, but still retaining a few of them.

                  It was an interesting concept that simply drinking elder blood, no diablerie involved, could make neonates more powerful. I don't think any later books revisited it.

                  I think one of the Diablerie modules does explore the subject a bit - and Berlin by Night makes some use of the aforementioned mechanics in the "Ascension of Caine" adventure....

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post

                    I had this conversation once with some players:



                    There's no such thing as a fair fight in the World of Darkness. Lodin might have higher stats than Kevin Jackson, but Kevin is prince. His reign isn't absolute, but he has vastly more allies, servants, and resources to draw upon than Lodin does. Kevin has a thousand and one ways to stack the deck in his favor, and the odds of them both duking it out in a white room where only their own stats matter are pretty low. On top of that, Lodin is a certified nutjob and will make suboptimal decisions with the few advantages he enjoys.

                    It's pretty easy for me to see him getting chucked out the window.

                    Lodin's power was more a matter of perception and politics than raw supernatural might anyway. Marcus Vitel ruled his city more or less absolutely, but Lodin was always the primogen's bitch. It was mainly the size and prosperity of his domain (largest Camarilla in the U.S. for a while) and ability to politic fairly well that made his name well-known.


                    Actually Lodin is the Vampire that usurped the throne of Chicago after less than a year he arrived in town, taking the town from the hand of a vampire older and stronger than him. Then he is the one that killed every single Ventrue that survived the coup.

                    After that he crushed Modius and his anarchs in the early XX century, another Vampire older and more powerful than him (and the main protegé of Annabelle Triabell. In 1968 he crushed the whole Anarch Movement of the United States, basically winning the War of Age with one single movement (the Night of Rage). After that he beated Maldavis.
                    He saved Saint Louis and Kansas City when these cities were sieged by the Sabbat and by the Black Hand. St, Louis would have fallen if Lodin hadn't personally joined the fight.

                    Betrayal, corruption,double agents, economic warfare, Lodin was a master of "unfair fights". Much more than Kevin is.


                    Even when it comes to politics and manuvering Kevin simple doesn't stand a chance. Lodin is smarter (Int 4 vs Int 3) and is one of the most deft and smart political player of the world of Darkness (Politics 6, which is the same value that have Hardestadt, Vitel or Mithras).

                    And last: Kevin is a neonate with few contacts with the Ventrue of the continent. Lodin on the other hand was the golden boy of the clan.

                    If we continue to use The Wire as a metaphor of the charcters...well...if Kevin is Stringer Bell...than Lodin is Marlo.


                    Even without taking in account the previous editions, let's take V5 stats.


                    Kevin is far worse when it comes to social skill and manipulation.

                    Kevin: Charisma 3, Manipulation 4, Composure 4
                    Lodin: Charisma 5, Manipulation 5, Composure 5

                    Kevin is dumber

                    Kevin: Intelligence 3; Wits 4; Resolve 5
                    Lodin: Intelligence 4, Wits 4, Resolve 4

                    And when it comes to skill related to politics and similar? A wide gap even there

                    Kevin:
                    Etiquette 1, Intimidation (Insults) 4, Leadership (Command, Inspiration) 5, Performance (Singing) 1 Persuasion (Bargaining) 3, Streetwise (Bloods) 4, Subterfuge 4; Awareness 2, Politics (Tyranny) 3

                    Lodin: Etiquette (Camarilla) 4, Insight 3, Intimidation 3, Leadership 4, Persuasion (Carousing) 4, Streetwise 3, Subterfuge (Impeccable Lies) 4; Academics 2, Awareness 1, Finance 2, Investigation 3, Occult 2, Politics (Camarilla) 5

                    Lodin is a far better political player, has much more knowledge abount finance and occult, is far more persuasive, more accustomed to how to play inside the Camarilla and is far more insightful.
                    Yeah Kevin is better at leadership and with intimidation, but that is not going to help against someone who has one dot more of domination and a better dice pool for presence.



                    Which means that the "fair fight" is Kevin best scenario. In an unfair fight Lodin would smear it.


                    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-05-2019, 04:53 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post

                      Actually Lodin is the Vampire that usurped the throne of Chicago after less than a year he arrived in town, taking the town from the hand of a vampire older and stronger than him. Then he is the one that killed every single Ventrue that survived the coup.
                      After that he crushed Modius and his anarchs in the early XX century, another Vampire older and more powerful than him (and the main protegé of Annabelle Triabell. In 1968 he crushed the whole Anarch Movement of the United States, basically winning the War of Age with one single movement (the Night of Rage). After that he beated Maldavis.
                      Even more he saved Saint Louis and Kansas City when these cities were sieged by the Sabbat and by the Black Hand. St, Louis would have fallen if Lodin hadn't personally joined the fight.

                      Even when it comes to politics and manuvering Kevin simple doesn't stand a chance. Lodin is smarter (Int 4 vs Int 3) and is one of the most deft and smart political player of the world of Darkness (Politics 6, which is the same value that have Hardestadt, Vitel or Mithras).

                      If we continue to use The Wire as a metaphor of the charcters...well...if Kevin is Stringer Bell...than Lodin is Marlo.
                      While I'm a big Lodin fan, I remind you that his role in a lot of that is a bit exaggerated.

                      * Lodin assaulted Maxwell with all the other Ventrue in the city, Maxwell killed almost all of them before he was forced to flee. Then Lodin killed the ones who survived.
                      * Ballard is the guy who destroyed Gary.
                      * Lodin won a battle against the Anarch Movement in CHICAGO. He also never defeated the Anarchs in Chicago completely.

                      He's also:

                      * The guy who got kidnapped and held prisoner by his own ghoul.
                      * The guy who Embraced a staggering amount of really bad vampires including Schumpeter and Drummond.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                        and is one of the most deft and smart political player of the world of Darkness (Politics 6, which is the same value that have Hardestadt, Vitel or Mithras).
                        Now that you mention it, that's actually pretty silly.
                        Don't tell me that Lodin; freaking LODIN; of all vampires knows as much about politics as the Methuselahs older than the Camarilla and Sabbat put together.

                        I mean, he has more dots in Politics than both Helena and Menele.

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                        • Originally posted by HardestadtTheEvenYounger View Post

                          Now that you mention it, that's actually pretty silly.
                          Don't tell me that Lodin; freaking LODIN; of all vampires knows as much about politics as the Methuselahs older than the Camarilla and Sabbat put together.

                          I mean, he has more dots in Politics than both Helena and Menele.

                          Why is it strange? Menele never played politics, same for Helena who lived a solitary life away from the room of powers.

                          Lodin was tutored by a 2200 years old Methuselah in Vera Cruz,was the prince of the most important Camarilla city of North America for 120 years (Vitel was prince for...30). He won 4 war for the princedom and was a regular in the Ventrue Salons of the Old continent. His Primogen council had 1 Brujah methuselah 2500 years old , 1 Gangrel 1600 years old, one of the most powerful elder Nosferatu of the world and, a 1000 years old Tremere that could have been Justicar a 5th gen Toreador old as dirt.

                          Lodin played more politics in his 120 years of princedom than Menele had in his 3200 years of unlife. It's not that strange. Menele was a philosopher, not a political mover. Helena is an hedonist who never dealt with power and never took any official charge in his life, she was not Alexander or Hardestadt.
                          Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-05-2019, 05:04 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post


                            Why is it strange? Menele never played politics, same for Helena who lived a solitary life away from the room of powers.

                            Lodin was the prince of the most important Camarilla city of north America for 120 years (Vitel was prince for...30). He won 4 war for the princedom and was a regular in the Ventrue Salons of the Old continent. His Primogen council had 1 Methuselah, 1 Gangrel 1500 years old, one of the most powerful elder Nosferatu of the world and, a 1000 years old Tremere that could have been Justicar a 5th gen Toreador
                            Well, for one, most of the decisions Lodin will make with his 6 dot Politics will have originated from either Helena or Menele. They control everyone in the city, one would presume their Politics would be astronomical unless Intelligence is just that much more important.

                            And, of course; and I do admit my bias here; between being a puppet to this own primogen, siring 2 broods; none of which he could control; which contained vampires of such "esteem" as Edgar Drummond and nearly being ousted multiple times, Lodin is the poster child of ineffectual rulership.

                            And, honestly, even if he was the most excellent 150 year old 7th generation vampire in the world, he'd still be an 150 years old 7th Generation vampire. There's no way he'd be able to make the same leaps of logic or think as incisively as 3000 years old childer and grandchilder of Antediluvians.

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                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              While I'm a big Lodin fan, I remind you that his role in a lot of that is a bit exaggerated.

                              * Lodin assaulted Maxwell with all the other Ventrue in the city, Maxwell killed almost all of them before he was forced to flee. Then Lodin killed the ones who survived.
                              * Ballard is the guy who destroyed Gary.
                              * Lodin won a battle against the Anarch Movement in CHICAGO. He also never defeated the Anarchs in Chicago completely.

                              He's also:

                              * The guy who got kidnapped and held prisoner by his own ghoul.
                              * The guy who Embraced a staggering amount of really bad vampires including Schumpeter and Drummond.
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              While I'm a big Lodin fan, I remind you that his role in a lot of that is a bit exaggerated.

                              * Lodin assaulted Maxwell with all the other Ventrue in the city, Maxwell killed almost all of them before he was forced to flee. Then Lodin killed the ones who survived.

                              First of all the coup was the result of a larger alliance made with Khalid, the Toreador and Nikolai, which just gives us confirmation that Lodin was better at politics than Maxwell.
                              Beside that: yes, he lead an army against a more powerful vampire, so what? He won the war anyway and was strong enough to kill every other Ventrue that survived that night.



                              * Ballard is the guy who destroyed Gary.
                              Mmmmh...no, it was Hinds.

                              Ballard and Capone are the one who destroyed Gary's economy much time later. But the victory against Modius was achieved when Lodin decided to get a foothold among the unions and use such foothold to turn more and more Modius' vampire to his cause. He pushed Modius into asking help to the anarchs and entrapped him politically.

                              Lodin finally concluded that his current arsenal was
                              incapable of stopping the workers. He began casting about for
                              a suitable tool to control the workers, and decided upon a
                              socialist leader, Tommy Hinds. He quickly Embraced the
                              prominent socialist and used Dominate to force Hinds (who
                              was also recently slain by Lupines) to turn on the other labor
                              leaders.

                              Hinds began by co-opting the union leadership with
                              promises of personal wealth and power in return for ensuring
                              the workers’ complacency. Industries most at risk were forced
                              to upgrade pay and working conditions, while recalcitrant
                              unions began to suffer the first takeover attempts by organized
                              crime. Modius’ forces were slow to react to this new
                              threat, but when they did it was with a violence previously
                              unknown during the long conflict.
                              Tired of the seemingly endless battle, Modius’ followers
                              had become impatient and less willing to rely on the kine.
                              Led by the anarch Balthazar and his sire, they began to seek
                              out and destroy Lodin’s helpers among both Kindred and
                              kine. Now Lodin knew he had the rebels where he wanted
                              them. He sought out the eldest Cainites in the city and
                              stressed the risk being run by the anarchs’ violations of the
                              Masquerade. He also promised to do his best to keep the city
                              at peace, and received the elders’ grudging approval to end
                              the long war by any tactics necessary.
                              At the same time, Hinds made his infamous visit to
                              Balthazar and convinced the Brujah to switch sides. With the
                              assistance of Balthazar and the quiet acquiescence of the
                              primogen, Lodin began a systematic campaign of extermination.
                              He managed to mask his attacks as a series of Blood
                              Hunts against violators of the Masquerade and, by the beginning
                              of World War I, had managed to destroy most of his
                              opponents.
                              However, Modius - with the secret aid of
                              Annabelle Triabell - managed to fortify himself in Gary,
                              then a center of union strength.
                              The episode you are speaking of happened later: it was called the interdiction, which was not done by Ballard on its own, but by Ballard and Capone by order of Lodin. At that time Modius had already lost, it was just Lodin kicking the dead man.

                              Lodin refused to forget the challenge Modius had made
                              to his rule. As long as no new threats emerged, the Prince of
                              Chicago’s primary goal remained the destruction of the
                              Prince of Gary. He began what is known as the Interdiction
                              of Gary - a scheme to strip Modius of power by destroying
                              the power of the mortals he controlled. To this end, Lodin
                              gave Ballard and Capone almost free rein to cripple the
                              Indiana city’s economy and destroy union influence. Though
                              the Interdiction tooksome time for its effects to be felt, by the
                              time Modius and the other socialists realized what was
                              happening, it was too late.
                              * Lodin won a battle against the Anarch Movement in CHICAGO. He also never defeated the Anarchs in Chicago completely.
                              Nope, he killed almost every leader of the Anarch movement in America, since they were in Chicago at the time, the movement was almost destroyed after the Night of Rage

                              Never before had the anarchs experienced an assault of
                              this magnitude. Faced by mass charges of heavily armed
                              police, the ranks of the protesters crumbled, and the anahchs
                              were forced to flee. Once they were out of sight of the
                              cameras, groups of elders and archons set upon them. More
                              than 100 vampires from all parts of the world disappeared
                              that night. Not all were extinguished, but it is said that the ashes
                              covered the streets the next morning
                              The prince’s forces took their share of losses, but for the
                              first time in centuries the Camarilla began to feel that the
                              anarch threat had been crushed.
                              Though many were shocked
                              at the risk to the Masquerade - some film had to be
                              destroyed, and certain eyewitnesses influenced or disposed of
                              -stability was finally restored to Chicago.
                              Not only had the Chicago Anarch Movement been crippled, but anarch Ieaders
                              from all over the country had been destroyed as well.
                              Many cities had the very hearts of their rebellions torn,
                              and princes everywhere felt free to launch brutal purges.
                              Anarchs everywhere were forced into hiding
                              The Anarchs that came later were a new generation. The old Anarch movement was dead, killed by Lodin with one swift and brutal strike.



                              He's also:

                              * The guy who got kidnapped and held prisoner by his own ghoul.
                              No, he was kidnapped by a ghoul went Super Sayna thanks to the blood given to him by a Methuselah who tried to take out Lodin.
                              So yeah, a Methuselah almost topped Lodin, it happens.

                              Rourke stats
                              Strenght 3
                              Dexterity 4
                              Stamina 4

                              Carisma 4
                              Manipulation 3
                              Appearance 3

                              Perception 4
                              Intelligence 4
                              Wits 4


                              Fortitude 3
                              Potence 2
                              Protean 4
                              Obfuscate 4
                              Presence 1
                              Celerity 1
                              Domination 2


                              Indimidation 5,Leadership 4, Streetwise 5, Subterfuge 3, Dodge 4, Alertness 4, Brawl 4, Stealth 4,Survival 5, Occult 4.

                              Willpower 7

                              So yeah, he was captured by a vampire who had the same number of dots of Annabelle Triabell,Theo Bell orTyrus, shit happens.




                              * The guy who Embraced a staggering amount of really bad vampires including Schumpeter and Drummond.
                              So what? Mithras also was very disappointed by his progeny. Ask the Duke and the Duchess of Amber how good they were, same for Valerius.

                              Comment


                              • [QUOTE=HardestadtTheEvenYounger;n1294148]

                                Well, for one, most of the decisions Lodin will make with his 6 dot Politics will have originated from either Helena or Menele. They control everyone in the city, one would presume their Politics would be astronomical unless Intelligence is just that much more important.


                                Actually the book made quite the effort to make sure that the reader understood that the machination of the Meth are subtle and that most of the time the action of the vampires are their own.


                                P 153
                                Even these two mighty immortals are not omnipotent,
                                however, nor do they exert control all the time. Most
                                Kindred act on their own initiative most of the time, and thus
                                tend to gravitate toward other vampires who share their
                                interests and desires.
                                Understanding these groups and their
                                interrelationships is the best way to make sense of the
                                complex dance in which the vampires of Chicago are so
                                involved.



                                And, of course; and I do admit my bias here; between being a puppet to this own primogen
                                Again, being the puppet of a Primogen council with Critia (5th gen, 2500 years old, Status 7), Inyanga (6th gen 1600 years old), Maria (5th gen 800 years old), Procet (6th gen +800 years old), Khalid (6th gen 750 years old), Nicolai (6th gen, 650 years old) is not really a point of demerit.

                                Besides, Lodin became the puppet only AFTER the rise of Maldavis.
                                Before that, he didn't cared about them much, that's the reason that pushed Khalid, Annabelle and Inyanga to throw their lot behind Maldavis.



                                siring 2 broods; none of which he could control; which contained vampires of such "esteem" as Edgar Drummond and nearly being ousted multiple times, Lodin is the poster child of ineffectual rulership.
                                Yeah, like Alexander who got ousted from a childe he could not control, Antonius who got staked and killed by an idiot child who plotted with a smarter one, Mithras who had the Duchess and the Duke of Amber (and even Marcus Verus turned rogue is not that bad) or his nephew Valerius, even more incompetent.
                                Being a great cainite doesn't mean your legacy will not be rebellious or dumb as stones.




                                And, honestly, even if he was the most excellent 150 year old 7th generation vampire in the world, he'd still be an 150 years old 7th Generation vampire. There's no way he'd be able to make the same leaps of logic or think as incisively as 3000 years old childer and grandchilder of Antediluvians.
                                And why? Qarak was even younger when he drank Alexander dry. Tremere was not that older when he wiped out the Salubri and beated the Tzimisce,the Gangrel and the Nosferatu in the Omen war. John Dee was not much older when he became the Pontifex of and started outsmarting Mithras himself. Caius had 200 years when he staked the mighty Antonius and left him to the sun. Regina Blake was 18 years old when she beated Kemintiri. Lucinde had 250 years when she outsmarted Kemintiri, Gratiano had 200 years when he outsmarted most elders and methuselah of Castel d'Ombro. Cock Robin was less than 300 years old when he destroyed the plots of the Methuselah Trajan, Al-Ashrad was not even a vampire when he ambushed and torched the favourite childe of Haqim.

                                It's really not that strange.
                                Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-05-2019, 06:19 PM.

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