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  • #76
    Originally posted by Growls View Post
    Here's the thing, it's good that MacTavish answers to Juggler rather than Maldavis or Anita.

    Because, if he showed up in the final act of a certain chronicle.... brr... I think my players would rebel in frustration when they get fucked up by a black-ops soldier with Earth Meld and Metamorphosis.
    Actually, I worry for Gamemasters who note that MacTavish is planning (without orders) to fuck up the Lasombra-Camarilla situation.

    Mind you, he does work very well if your characters are Pro-Camarilla (why?) as a existential threat for an adventure.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #77
      We finished a certain campaign last night and I thought I'd share some notes from it, which will come up when we get there.

      The Sacrifice

      + The player characters were taken by Kevin Jackson to look after the Lasombra guests because he assumed they would be a stalking horse for any threats or betrayal from the delegation.

      + Kevin Jackson doesn't know that he's actually been flat out Dominated into doing this by Helena. Helena wants the Lasombra in the Camarilla and believes the PCs are firmly on her side because of previous campaign events.

      Also, it's not like they hav a choice to be on her side.

      + I used an NPC I bought for CBN5E's Kickstarter as a "info dump" man on the subject of all the politics.

      + The player characters were a lot more interested in the politics of the adventure than the actual interactions for the first couple of sessions. Generally, they saw the issue in pretty stark terms as Anarchs.

      1. Help the Camarilla by getting the Lasombra to join and potentially empower their enemies.
      2. Hurt the Sabbat, who is a much bigger threat to the Anarchs and Kindred as a whole

      It was an interesting argument that resulted in a lot of arguments throughout the campaign when they confronted characters like Gengis, Maldavis, and Anita.

      + Kevin Jackson's oppression of the Anarchs also really hurt his position as I wanted to emphasize his position in the Camarilla isn't as tenable as he thinks. I added the meeting was supposed to overseen by a Justicar who sent their Archons to oversee it, only to have said Justicar's Archons get killed.

      (It was done by MacTavish who sought to frame the Sabbat)

      + The player characters were remarkably well behaved the entire way through in terms of negotiations and talking people done, rarely resorting to violence. This seriously impressed Sierra and seriously disappointed Malenkov.

      + I had the goon squad of Son be something the PCs, as Gary NPCs, actually track back to him. In the game, Son is shown as a devious mastermind but I felt like Son is mostly that in comparison to Chicago's vampires.

      I had Sierra figure out the reality of it.

      + The PCs being a lot savvier than most PCs, proceeded to frame Son for the murder of the Archons and also rescued the Justicar who was being held prisoner by MacTavish using people who thought they were working for the Second Inquisition (dominated FBI workers).

      Sierra was very happy to use this and the Justicar "pardoned" them for their Anarch ways. Which the PCs had no intention of abiding by but let them do it.

      + Sierra also pointed out it would be to their advantage not to have the Anarch threat "contained" but to always be there in order to solidify the Lasombra position. She also pointed out that while she would always do her clan best, she did owe the PCs and that she abided by the currency of favors. The PCs just said, "Chaos is a ladder."

      Sierra didn't get it.

      + The ending decision with Malenkov was a big one as there was serious debate over whether to:

      1. Help Malenkov join the Anarchs
      2. Fake Malenkov's death with Vicisstiude and a Embraced patsy (They have access to it even if it's not in 5E)
      3. Turn him over to the Camarilla as is

      In the end, the PCs chose 3# because they believed Malenkov would be a poisonous influence in the Anarchs as a Path of Enlightenment following scumbag.

      + The PCs voted for the Lasombra and it was a motion carried.

      + The Anarchs were, of course, furious and ready to cast the PCs out before the PCs flat out explained that the Camarilla was now drawn into the Sabbat Civil War with the Lasombra. Worse, the Camarilla now had a nest of vipers among them.

      They scored a lot of sucesses in their speech and frankly, I agreed with them.

      + Sierra planned to take the Primogen Position of the late son but Bronwyn, instead, challenged her over it. She then set her sights on Marcel's seat, already making an untenable situation worse. The Lasombra, after all, didn't come to Chicago to be slaves but to rule.

      Jackson didn't know what he was in for.
      Last edited by CTPhipps; 01-31-2019, 08:17 PM.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #78
        Lasombra

        The Lasombra is a group I've already talked about before and I'm glad to see them show up in Chicago. I've had multiple Lasombra Antitribu in my games and
        I've always felt they fit well into the power games of the Camarilla. Indeed, I've always felt the Lasombra existed in the Sabbat to give them the sense of a brain and politics which the Anarchs lacked. Notably, with the Ministry joining the Anarchs, that's no longer necessary as whenever the Ventrue or Tremere plot against the Movement they're going to run into people like Hesha now--who, unlike Salvador or MacNeil, can actually plot their way out of a paperbag.

        As stated in this book, the Lasombra aren't defecting from the Sabbat. Instead, a very large number of Lasombra are defecting from the Sabbat. One thing which 5E has been emphasizing is there's no longer Clan gatekeeping going on. If you want to be a Ravnos, Hecata, Ministry, Brujah, Gangrel, Kisayd Camarilla Archon then you probably can be in this new edition. I fully expect when the Sabbat book comes out that the Tzimisce will have rules for playing Camarilla members now.

        What's happened with the Lasombra is that enough Lasombra are defecting that the Lasombra in the Sabbat can't force the Antitribu underground and their previous position as undisputed masters of the sect will be in doubt. I think someone calculated that the Lasombra were like 30% of the Sabbat, the Tzimisce 25%, and the remaining 45% were the Antitribu. Something like 15% of the Sabbat are defecting in this version and that means the remaining 15% Lasombra are.....STILL the 2nd largest power block in the sect. Weakened as they are, the Cardinals and Archbishops are still going to be mostly Lasombra.

        It's just things are going to be a bit different because the Neonates of the Sabbat are going to include 5th and 6th generation Brujah Antitribu who speak Carthagian and have renamed themselves Astorix and Bahamut. Because I have no doubt The Gentleman Gamer 's crew are going to take full advantage of what they did with Monty Coven, except it's going to happen to dozens of vampires thanks to the Gehenna War.

        The Antediluvians rising up and eating vampiredom may come at the hands of the hungry YOUNG in a bit of Sabbat irony.

        Do I have any regrets about this section? No, it's great, but I'm kinda disappointed Lucita wasn't one of the vampires negotiating the defection since I still want to see a kind of perverse redemption for her. Well as much as a Humanity 4 vampire can achieve.

        Sierra Van Burrace

        Type: NPC

        Synopsis: The Lasombra's chief negotiator for defection.

        Review: Sierra Van Burrace is a character who certainly is going to find her way into my games. She's pretty much the opposite of my problem with Sweetie Pepper in that while he's one that's all about the combat and crazy, she's all about the high end political intrigue. Equally difficult to do without preparation but very rewarding when done right. I could very easily see her played by Olivia Munn (if she's meant to be biracial) or Ally Maki (if she's meant to be completely of Japanese descent).

        The premise of Sierra (or Lucy as she was known in life) is she was the worst Sabbat candidate of all time. At least from the stereotype of Neonate Sabbat being a bunch of crazed psycho-killers out of NEAR DARK and the Elders being a bunch of Satanist depraved occultists. Siera's heavily involved in the mortal world, loves cultivating money as well as influence (which is what REVENANTS are for), and was even trained to be a vampire by first being turned to be a ghoul.

        Really, there's almost no vampire you could design who is less suitable for the stereotypical Sabbat or its structure than someone who is as geared for politeness, politics, resources, and keeping tight emotional control. I'm fairly sure the only reason she's not dead is that Talley was her sire and anyone likely to challenge her to monomancy would likely spontaneously explode in a bunch of shadows.

        Indeed, Sierra pretty much embodies what is the "Why would the Lasombra defect to the Camarilla?" The implications being that while we've been exposed to many-many shovelheaded psychopaths over the years, the Lasombra have been embracing people like Sierra to try and rebuild their mortal power base. Either this is a new policy they've adopted or they've been doing it the entire time and we just haven't been seeing these "Not completely batshit insane" Lasombra.

        The idea the Lasombra have been having Humanity 4 and 5 "maybe a little nastier than most Camarilla ancilla but not kicking heads made of soccer moms and their children around the park" goes a long way to explain why this sudden defection might be taking place. There's a lot more Lasombra who aren't in step with the Sabbat as we've been presented them for decades. Lasombra who aren't, for all intents and purposes, hooligans.

        I think this feels a bit like a retcon because everything we've seen of the Sabbat from Montreal by Night to Mexico City by Night to the various Player Guides indicate there wasn't a silent majority or even plurality of Sabbat who weren't drinking the Kool-Aid (embodied by the Vaulderie) and secretly longing to run 5 star hotels and manage business empires versus fostering all the "mortal stuff" off on the Grimaldi. Still, if we're going to make a retcon then I actually think this is one that makes sense and broadens the Sabbat even if it's only in preparation for said group LEAVING the Sabbat.

        In a very real way, Sierra is identical to Kevin Jackson in that the Beckoning and recent troubles have created a power vacuum above her for her to ascend to become a leading figure of vampirism despite her young age. She's a character the PCs will have to watch because, like Jackson, she very much could climb to the top of the Camarilla and become a threat to everyone standing in her way
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-16-2019, 02:07 AM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

          It's good to have at least an NPC thinking strategically about fights. Too often the game is shaped by movies, where two characters duke it out - even if that makes no strategic, or tactical sense - or even little narrative sense. So in the game the players are limited in their thinking. If they can't slap some elder around in a fist fight, they just knuckle under. Rather than sniping with incendiary rounds, or using bombs, etc. Having at least an NPC operate that way is cool.

          Also, I wrote "fish fight" until I reread the post.
          Thinking strategically is one of the main reasons why I never had a problem with the old school death cult Assamites. One of the easiest adventures which wrote themselves is you have an Assamite come after one of the player characters and they refuse to engage in a straight fight. They rig up a bomb in your haven, kidnap your ghoul, snipe you in public in hopes you'll frenzy so you have a Masquerade breach to cover up, or any number of other things that makes the players paranoid as well as frustrated.

          I do the same thing for my Inquisitors as they're not there to fight fair. The squishiness of humans doesn't matter if they're burning down your haven with molotov cocktails and have welded the basement door to the sewers shut.

          Originally posted by Growls View Post
          Here's the thing, it's good that MacTavish answers to Juggler rather than Maldavis or Anita.

          Because, if he showed up in the final act of a certain chronicle.... brr... I think my players would rebel in frustration when they get fucked up by a black-ops soldier with Earth Meld and Metamorphosis.
          Random Aside:

          * We've established that MacTavish doesn't trust Maldavis and presumably knows she's a Tremere. I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks she's an agent provocateur.

          * Anita is, for all of her better qualities, far less violent and radical an Anarch than Chicago probably needs right now.

          * I have some hopes for some Anarch characters to step up and take the position as "just violent enough" but we'll see if and when these people show up.
          Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-01-2019, 04:29 AM.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            Something like 15% of the Sabbat are defecting in this version and that means the remaining 15% Lasombra are.....STILL the 2nd largest power block in the sect.
            Is this taking into account the fact that for every Lasombra who defects, an Elder of the clan must be sacrificed? If 15% leave, another 15% are dead, mathematically speaking. And the dead half are guaranteed Elders. This one-two punch severely weakens the Lasombra presence in the Sabbat.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Garygeneric View Post
              Is this taking into account the fact that for every Lasombra who defects, an Elder of the clan must be sacrificed? If 15% leave, another 15% are dead, mathematically speaking. And the dead half are guaranteed Elders. This one-two punch severely weakens the Lasombra presence in the Sabbat.
              I don't think those numbers will be directly accurate because while the "one elder for every Lasombra defector" would be a useful thing, it's also going to be the case that those Lasombra who are attempting to defect are going to be people who are going to fail as often as they succeed.

              Also, kudos to Sierra because she made use of LOOPHOLE ABUSE (See Tvtropes.org) because she was very clear that it's not "one LASOMBRA elder for every Lasombra defector" (as that would quickly cripple them as a clan) it is one "SABBAT" Elder for every Lasombra defector. Thus the Lasombra defectors are going to be eliminating Antitribu, Tzimisce, and Bloodlines members every bit as much (and probably more so) than their fellow Keepers. Not because they won't need to kill a bunch of their fellows in order to escape but also because the other bloodlines and anti-clans are going to be easier to take down.

              At least initially. It's suicide to go after the Tzimisce once their elders figure out what's going on and I pity any attempt to take down the Harbingers of Skulls.
              My Chicago by Night 5E game had the Lasombra get a 1:1 deal for all Salubri Antitribu with the Tremere. As broken as they are, the Tremere still have heavy pull. Thus by the end of 2018, the Salubri Antiribu are either in the service of House Goratrix or have ceased to exist. Even so, Jackson's deal for Chicago is just the "inspiration" for most Camarilla cities and some may negotiate better or worse deals depending on the Lasombra in question. The guy in New Orleans may just take any who agree to back him against the Tremere.

              Also, Lasombra being Lasombra, I have no doubt they will be lying about who qualifies as an Elder and faking whenever they need to. This is the Camarilla and if half of the apples you offer your lord as tribute aren't rotten then you don't belong at the Big Kids table anyway.

              The Sabbat are going to take a major hit from this but not one I see the Lasombra being crippled or killed by. They have bigger problems right now, which goes to show just how bad things are.
              Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-01-2019, 10:54 AM.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #82
                I received an update from the good people at ONYX PATH PUBLISHING about THE CHICAGO FOLIO, LET THE STREETS RUN RED, and BLOOD CULTS.

                All three of them are in the first draft form and being written by the hard working slaves...err writers at Onyx Path. So we won't probably be seeing anything from them for awhile yet but I'm very excited about all three books.

                I'm also hoping they'll do a Kickstarter for Blood Cults when its done.



                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #83
                  @CTPhipps


                  Thank you for this thread! I'm loving it, it's enjoyable and helpful!

                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                  Lasombra

                  It's just things are going to be a bit different because the Neonates of the Sabbat are going to include 5th and 6th generation Brujah Antitribu who speak Carthagian and have renamed themselves Astorix and Bahamut. Because I have no doubt The Gentleman Gamer 's crew are going to take full advantage of what they did with Monty Coven, except it's going to happen to dozens of vampires thanks to the Gehenna War.

                  The Antediluvians rising up and eating vampiredom may come at the hands of the hungry YOUNG in a bit of Sabbat irony.
                  Brilliant commentary and very insightful! Although it is quite an obvious direction, it hadn't occurred to me yet. Thanks again!

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                  • #84
                    Celia Arcaceil Rivera

                    Type: NPC

                    Synopsis: Frightened Fledgling Heiress

                    Review: I commented on the character of Mercy Valdez and much of what I said about her is the same, though they are very different characters. Celia has been turned against her will and dumped in the middle of Chicago with no one to guide her. She's killed multiple people (accidentally) and multiple pets (not so accidentally). I fear she's probably killed John Wick's dog at some point and is utterly screwed since he's a Euthanatos Gun Mage. Lots of Correspondence, Mind, and Time rotes.

                    Okay, that was a weird digression. Anyway, Celia is the heiress of the Pulso Del Mundo which is a Spanish language media empire that combines fashion, food, and oddball journalism. It's recently been sold to Pentex but it seems less like this is a diabolical plot of EVIL than more simply business as usual. [Note: One of the things I had in my last werewolf game was the statement that Pentex's biggest danger is that 99% of its business is just typical industrialized capitalism and that generates enough bad news that the remaining 1% of banes or human sacrifice is just to probably pay off some specific executive's demonic investment to remain young for an additional 50 years. In short, the war against it is probably hopeless.]

                    There's implications that she is being influenced by SOMETHING in the void and I'm inclined to give her a Loresheet that implies it's either the Lasombra Antediluvian or somthing totally unexpected like Mithras (even though he's Ventrue). I'd probably avoid anything actually demonic and might even go low by making it a "mere" Wraith of considerable power. Oblivion is linked to Necromancy now so there's any number of Kindred ghosts who could be influencing her. Possible canddiates include: Modius, Khalid, Paris (assuming Helena didn't order his ghost bottled), Lawrence Ballard, Theodore Dooley, Gordon Keaton (that would suck), or Lucita (if she's dead).

                    The big appeal of Celia is the fact she's a variation on the urban legend "a homeless woman you encounter is actually a billionaire." There was an episode of Batman: The Animated Series and the Resident which dealt with the story. In this case, Celia is fully aware of who she is and not amnesiac but she's terrified of her situation and Chicago is big enough that the first people she encounters might not be friendly. The implications are Cederick Calhoun tried approaching her but assumed she knew what a Nosferatu was (she didn't) and Helena is also playing headgames with her because, well, Helena is an evil bitch. Celia has also seen Sun Che and senses she's possessed too but misses that, well, Sun Che is one of the worst people in Chicago after Son.
                    The PCs can basically get a really rich patron if they manage to sit down with Celia for maybe a couple of hours and explain to her the do's and don'ts of Kindred society. Ceila will likely be eternally grateful to them, Anarch or Camarilla, and they'll have a friend for life. Which is always good in these situations.

                    Also, kudos for the implications Celia isn't conventionally attractive. It'd be all too easy to make her another gorgeous Spanish lady.

                    If I have any complaints, there's nothing which necessarily screams LASOMBRA and could have had the space count used for someone like Lucita (I'm a broken record about this). She's also a bit similar to Mercy Valdez in the sense of being a fledgling completely out of their depth who the PCs can help by simply sitting down then explaining the rules. Mercy is doing far better than Celia, though, because someone DID sit down and explain the rules--however briefly.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #85
                      I do understand you're a big fan of Lucita, but we didn't have a particular reason to introduce her in this book (any more than we did Theo Bell, Beckett, or Aisling Stourbridge). I'm sure she'll pop up at some point, but putting an iconic character in Chicago kind of takes the focus off the events and other characters.


                      Matthew Dawkins
                      In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                      Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                      Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                        I do understand you're a big fan of Lucita, but we didn't have a particular reason to introduce her in this book (any more than we did Theo Bell, Beckett, or Aisling Stourbridge). I'm sure she'll pop up at some point, but putting an iconic character in Chicago kind of takes the focus off the events and other characters.
                        Any criticism I'm putting on you for not including a character is entirely for humorous effect.

                        "WHAT, TALLEY KILLED LUCITA!? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"



                        And yes, the joke wasn't funny the 2nd time I asked you if she was going to be there.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          [SIZE=20px]The premise of Sierra (or Lucy as she was known in life) is she was the worst Sabbat candidate of all time.
                          Arguably there is an implication that some among the Sabbat operate like Sierra, otherwise the sect would have imploded, utterly destroyed its cities and provoked a Second Inquisition a century or two ago. That some among the Sabbat are the ruling peers and elites, while the raving shovel heads are just the hoi polloi and not actually trusted with much decision making power.

                          Naturally, it is the House of Lords of the Sabbat, rather than the House of Common, which are going to avoid the entire Gehenna War insanity and try to find a home in the Camarilla.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                            Arguably there is an implication that some among the Sabbat operate like Sierra, otherwise the sect would have imploded, utterly destroyed its cities and provoked a Second Inquisition a century or two ago. That some among the Sabbat are the ruling peers and elites, while the raving shovel heads are just the hoi polloi and not actually trusted with much decision making power.

                            Naturally, it is the House of Lords of the Sabbat, rather than the House of Common, which are going to avoid the entire Gehenna War insanity and try to find a home in the Camarilla.
                            I had the view during Revised that the Sabbat, as we know it, is actually a fairly recent invention and has been steadily getting worse for the past couple of centuries. I'm a big fan of in-universe explanations for retcons and revisions. Things like the fact "5E's No Discipline over 5" is due to the Withering and a lot of powers are becoming more flexible.

                            One of my notes from the transition from 2nd Edition to Revised was "The Sabbat is becoming more vicious, violent, and less concerned about any kind of honor--alien or otherwise." The 2nd Edition version of the Sabbat stated they were amoral and unconcerned about humanity while Revised was, "We're monsters, WOOO!" I always liked this was actually a reflection in-universe of a change in attitude among the Sabbat.

                            Symbolic of this change was the purge of the Path of Harmony which I stated was when the last of the Sabbat who were trying to reign their brothers in and behave with, "I am a vampire and i must feed but I don't have to be a dickhead about it." Their mass murder resulted in the deaths of the last of the Sabbat's "conscience" so to speak. The Path of Harmony might treat humans like animals but they saw no reason to TORTURE animals.

                            I also ruled the Path of Night as practiced in the Sabbat was some gross distortion of things as the Road of Night was The Path of Batman. The former being, essentially, a variation on the Path of Evil Revelations and another sign of the Sabbat giving fully into the Beast. There was also whatever the hell was happening to the Tzimisce that could have been a reflection of their founder's madness wakening up in them. Because Ed Gein furniture and Nazi lampshades aren't actually ways of greater enlightenment, its just something nasty and rotten in the Clan becoming common.

                            It fit with the role I had for the Tal'Mah'Re in my games as I ruled that was actually a cult that while it predated the Sabbat, in my games was also something of a "inner circle" of the Sabbat who really were the original Dark Age Road "evil but honorable" vampires were inscrutable but admirable figures. They adopted the original Anarch Revolt and let alot of their ancient esoteric wisdom trickle down but that day is done.

                            So 5E fits with my idea that the latter have withdrawn their support in the wake of the Gehenna Crusade, that the Crazy Monster faction has been in ascendent for decades, and the purging of all the nicer members of the Sabbat have resulted in the current Sword of Caine to being the "ISIL that's emerged from previous terrorist groups" that's "More Sabbat than the Sabbat ever was." A cariacture of itself that might be more effective than the original--but more effective at WHAT?

                            Weirdly, my co-ST Michal Suttkus (who helped me write I WAS A TEENAGE WEREDEER that is kind of my parody of Werewolf: The Apocalypse sensibilities), came up with this on his own and has been incorporating that into the Vampire game where I'm a player for some time. His games are full of "Sabbat Refugees" including Path following Caine worshipers who hate that the diablerists are destroying the intellectual roots of their sect and younger soccer hooligan Sabbat who, at least, still remembered when you were supposed to have each other's back. The former has defected to the Camarilla and the latter to the Anarchs.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #89
                              I find Sweetie Pepper real name,the one I have too,really ironic. It means "victory of the people"

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Nicolas Milioni View Post
                                I find Sweetie Pepper real name,the one I have too,really ironic. It means "victory of the people"
                                Also, his last name is White.



                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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