Different Strains/Versions of Vampirism other than Kindred in VtM

[Black Blood]

First of all I've found this interesting Web Comic by Spearhafoc which is a huge crossover of almost every 19th century literary and Public Domain Vampires

Now the point is inspired by this web comic I've been thinking of this idea for a long time that what if Kindred are not the only Vampire types that exist in the world and especially if there's Vampires that are not Kindred at all that exist in the world?

For example, Bram Stoker's Dracula at least his novel incarnation although Dracula already exists in VtM but as a Tzimisce but honestly I never liked how it treated Dracula but rather in the novel, Dracula actually turned himself into a Vampire via occultist means as in black magic and alchemy he learned from the Scholomance hence why he's able to walk in the sun unharmed but it weakened him or without resorting to fortitude and pretty much has Methuselah/Antediluvian/Caine like levels of raw power (probably not disciplines but rather closer to True Magic from Mage especially from Arcane Knowledge) but greatly vulnerable like catholic imagery immediately repels or harms him regardless the faith of the wielder, can't enter a home without invitation, can only sleep in native soil, has no shadow, no refection on any reflective surfaces, can't show up in cameras and even portraits of him crumble over time, can't cross running water, and his eyes glow inferno red when gets pissed off or engaging in Vampiric things, etc.

Especially Carmilla herself though that she's also able to walk in the daylight but of course she has to sleep in a coffin or confined space of her victims blood, she's also repelled by Catholic Imagery regardless of the wielder especially Hymns harm her as well, Of course she change into a giant black cat, walk through solid matter like noclip mode and can open locked doors and such and how she became a vampire is that she actually died after being drained by a Vampire in the chest after her birthday ball whose related to Karnstein blood (like Count Karnstein) who committed suicide who was evil in life as so as they say.

Especially I don't think this scene is possible in VtM.....

Of course there's also 19th century literary vampires like Carmilla, Lord Ruthven, Clarimonde, Sir Francis Varney, etc since all of them walked in the sun with no problem either just like Dracula especially Ruthven and Varney can be killed via normal means but they can be brought back to life the rays of a Full Moon hence another reason I never liked how VtM handled both Dracula and Ruthven since they discarded their original source material and turned them into Kindred pretty much despite their differences. Hell there's even a obscure Vampire novel written in 1867 called "Vampire City" by Paul Feval which contains one of the most bizarre vampire incarnations to exist in literature which "Otto Goetzi" belongs to this strange breed which they basically glow green, they drink blood through their tongues, they make duplicates and "sub vampires" or "vampirculs" when they kill a mortal which they all merge together and they also function like biological clockwork which they have a hole in their chests which needles are used to "twink" them back into action if they get harmed that is not to mention there's a entire Vampire City in Yugoslavia called "Selene" which is shrouded in eternal night with a Full Moon always overhead as well.

Basically in a world where different variations of Vampirism exists, I guess Kindred make up the majority but I guess they also persecute other Vampires from other variations as well?

Especially it would make sense that VtM Kindred burn in sunlight, have a beast that they all must adhere rigid moral guidelines like Humanity, Paths, Roads, etc, They're all descended from Caine hence "Cainites" that get weaker with each generation, they can blood bond and create ghouls (while other variations of vampires can't) since Kindred/Cainites have a beast they all frenzy as well while other Vampires like Dracula, Carmilla, Ruthven, etc don't. Now imagine Dracula grabbing a rampaging Kindred in Frenzy by the neck and saying "So the beast, that's your bane not mine..."

Now imagine that as a possibility....

[No One of Consequence]

If you've never read it, Kim Newman's Anno Dracula is the start of a series involving Dracula as Royal Consort of Queen Victoria and Lord Ruthven as Prime Minister, among a story involving Jack the Ripper and the Diogenes Club, with cameos from a ton of Victorian and vampire characters (including Barnabas Collins, Kurt Barlow and Prince Mamuwalde). The sequel, the Bloody Red Baron, is set in WW1.

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I read Anno Dracula years ago, and remember it being entertaining. How is Bloody Red Baron?

Black Blood, at the risk of being childish, it is your game and you can do with it as you want. I have found the official WoD to be too limiting for a number of reasons - that it ignores a lot of interesting real-world lore is just one of the issues. Granted, this means you are on your own in uncharted territory. But that is not automatically a problem, if you are both bold and competent.

[Black Blood]

If you've never read it, Kim Newman's Anno Dracula is the start of a series involving Dracula as Royal Consort of Queen Victoria and Lord Ruthven as Prime Minister, among a story involving Jack the Ripper and the Diogenes Club, with cameos from a ton of Victorian and vampire characters (including Barnabas Collins, Kurt Barlow and Prince Mamuwalde). The sequel, the Bloody Red Baron, is set in WW1.

Ironically that Web Comic I've linked to is actually loosely based on Anno Dracula which is actually about Dracula (his original novel incarnation of course) recruiting majority of the 19th century literary vampires (and Orlok of course) to take over England (except for Varney and Clarimonde which they're in opposite sides) his ongoing "project" or unfinished business since 1897 which sounds awefully alot better than anything V5's metaplot had to offer.

I have found the official WoD to be too limiting for a number of reasons - that it ignores a lot of interesting real-world lore is just one of the issues. Granted, this means you are on your own in uncharted territory. But that is not automatically a problem, if you are both bold and competent.

This is very true and one of the major problems with VtM since it seems to take Modern Era Hollywood vampire lore (like burning in sunlight, ghouls/blood bonding which they're no where to be found in 19th century vampire literature which even the character Reinfield was taken out of context which is what the Ghouls are based on) and establishes it as fact and blankets all vampires with it even if they're not originally that at all.

Hence I find it better off just treating Kindred/Cainites as another variation of vampirism among others instead of being THE vampire race nor are they the definitive version of it.

Which means running a VtM game that has Vampires from Del Toro's "The Strain" as antagonists, The Wampyrs from the "Necroscope" series, The True Blood Vampires, Vampires from "The Vampire Chronicles" or have Lestat show up and he's exactly like he's described in the books and he's not Kindred either, or the Retrovirus "Medically explained" (or Technocratic Paradigm version of) Vampires from the Underworld Blade and Daybreaker movies, or Buffy style vampires and such.

Or have Dracula, Carmilla, Ruthven, etc show up and they're exactly as described in their original novels and they have different origins and entirely different versions of vampirism or Folkloric Vampires that are defiantly not Kindred at all which in that we can leave VtM unchanged as it is but present other types of Vampires existing at the same time like different snowflakes as if to keep each other distinctive from each other.

That means no porting Vampires from other fiction and converting them to Kindred but rather just keep everything intact and keep them separate like Dracula, Carmilla, etc are exactly how they are from their original novels but Vampires like Lucita, Beckett, etc are still Kindred though.

On a another note which BTW if you want to see how bizarre the vampires from "Vampire City" are like well the particular web comic artist I've linked to in my OP also hosted a podcast talking about this:

[No One of Consequence]

I read Anno Dracula years ago, and remember it being entertaining. How is Bloody Red Baron?

I read it about 20 years ago and remember enjoying it. There are a lot of references to early German cinema that I only partially got at the time. I've never read the third part, which is set in 1960s Italy.

[Pnizzle]

The Possessed book introduces this idea. You can make custom possessed character that can simulate vampiric traits but aren’t kindred. And there are blood worms too. Kuejin too. Ananasi.

[Black Blood]

The Possessed book introduces this idea. You can make custom possessed character that can simulate vampiric traits but aren’t kindred. And there are blood worms too. Kuejin too. Ananasi.

Of course it's also common knowledge that "in universe" wise, there isn't really that much options available outside of Kindred regarding that Formori are not only repulsive and disgusting but also directly tied to the Wyrm and Pentex as well and also Bloodworms are even worse versions of this as well that have short unlives and also they're created during when a Kindred frenzies which results of them going wassial hence doesn't like they're actually playable but they're still "other types" of vampires presented though although sounds like to me that Bloodworms are still Kindred though although their description is body horror disgusting though just like the rest of the Formori, and of course Kuie-Jinn are basically Fu Manchu or based on rather hurtful racist orientalist yellow perilesque stereotypes of East Asians and nothing barely remotely resembling actual East Asian mythology and Ananasi are simply Werespiders pretty much not the typical undead type Vampire.

I guess one is better off introducing Vampires from other fictional works especially public domain ones hence this thread especially.

[Lian]

Of course it's also common knowledge that "in universe" wise, there isn't really that much options available outside of Kindred regarding that Formori are not only repulsive and disgusting but also directly tied to the Wyrm and Pentex as well and also Bloodworms are even worse versions of this as well that have short unlives and also they're created during when a Kindred frenzies which results of them going wassial hence doesn't like they're actually playable but they're still "other types" of vampires presented though although sounds like to me that Bloodworms are still Kindred though although their description is body horror disgusting though just like the rest of the Formori, and of course Kuie-Jinn are basically Fu Manchu or based on rather hurtful racist orientalist yellow perilesque stereotypes of East Asians and nothing barely remotely resembling actual East Asian mythology and Ananasi are simply Werespiders pretty much not the typical undead type Vampire.

I guess one is better off introducing Vampires from other fictional works especially public domain ones hence this thread especially.

Not really? I mean KOTE while having some solidly painful 90s orientalism both fetishism and rebranding of peril is probably the most "folkloric" basic concept of vampires? Evil spirit inhabits body. Person escapes underworld and retakes body. Body isn't properly buried. Person died wrong. These are pretty common sources of Vampiric creatures throughout the world. The other big ones being Evil wizard and "Born that way" And them sort of being something that just keeps happening rather than anything from V:TM from the idea of blood weakening over time, creating others, the majority of Disciplines....

That doesn't mean they can't be improved and made less painful 90s.. but having them be the hill you want to die on for "Painfully racist/nieve WOD" bits.. is definately and odd place.

[Black Blood]

Not really? I mean KOTE while having some solidly painful 90s orientalism both fetishism and rebranding of peril is probably the most "folkloric" basic concept of vampires? Evil spirit inhabits body. Person escapes underworld and retakes body. Body isn't properly buried. Person died wrong. These are pretty common sources of Vampiric creatures throughout the world. The other big ones being Evil wizard and "Born that way" And them sort of being something that just keeps happening rather than anything from V:TM from the idea of blood weakening over time, creating others, the majority of Disciplines....

That doesn't mean they can't be improved and made less painful 90s.. but having them be the hill you want to die on for "Painfully racist/nieve WOD" bits.. is definately and odd place.

Actually it is especially the fact about KotE is that you also have to be East Asian descent as well (as in if you want to play as a Kuie-Jinn, then you have to be Chinese, Japanese or Korean or any east Asian decent as you're restricted to those nationalities alone and you can't play as a European Kuie-Jinn or a African one or any type of Westerner because they don't exist because White Wolf said so) and there's no such thing as Kuie-Jinn "Westerners" as well since they're specifically restricted to that region alone unless of course as one exception with the whole "Great Leap Outward" metaplot as in the only Kuie-Jinn that exist in the west are in California trying to take it over of course because Yellow Peril you know so yes it is racist because essentially if you play KotE, you're playing as Fu Manchu and there's no other way around it because that's how the game is designed.

Also you're missing the point that Kuie-Jinn are not exactly based on Chinese or Japanese mythology at any way shape or form either if they sound like Folkloric Vampires to you then it's pretty subpar by shoehorning the Orientalist East Asian stuff in there.

[Leandro16]

The two biggest problems of VTM are his mechanics and the fact that Noddism is absolutly true and this is reflected both metaplotwise and mechanicwise via the generations that by the way should be replaced by age to make the existence of the antediluvians more ambiguous , becuase you dont need almost every unliving being to belive in caine to talk about it as one viable and posible origin for vampirism when you have the Sabbat and the Church of Caine preaching noddism 24/7.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now what can you do to talk about different strains of vampirism

1. Just Say that Ruthven , Carmilla and Dracula are not your clasical vampires , they made a deal with the devil , were cursed by god at another point of the history , posessed by an spirit , changed his soul and body thanks to the alchemy and ancient rituals , a mage did it etc... the point is that the curse they carry isnt the same the others kindred carry and as consecuence the same rules do not aply to them.Do they try to disimulate this by proclaiming alligence to other clans? or are they the tomorrow antediluvians when their blood thickens?
2. Just give them merits that allow to do what legends say they do but how did they archive that? , are they in Golconda? There is an alternative? , are they allies or members of the Incomunu? are they really vampires.
3. Just say they are possesed
4. Play Requiem 2ED becuase it is a toolbox replacing the invictus with the camarilla and the belial brood with the sabbat and the baali , the clans that aren´t there can be ported following the conversion guide , and you can even port the canon characters from VTM becuase they are the best from masquerade along the by night books and what requiem lacks (In my version of Chicago Inganya is a Gangrel member or the circle of the Crone , Critias is a Daeva from the Brujah Bloodline playing in both the Camarilla and the Carthian side , Nicolai is a Mekhet from the universal tremere bloodline afiliated to the House of Tremere Covenant etc...)

[Black Blood]

The two biggest problems of VTM are his mechanics and the fact that Noddism is absolutly true and this is reflected both metaplotwise and mechanicwise via the generations that by the way should be replaced by age to make the existence of the antediluvians more ambiguous , becuase you dont need almost every unliving being to belive in caine to talk about it as one viable and posible origin for vampirism when you have the Sabbat and the Church of Caine preaching noddism 24/7.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now what can you do to talk about different strains of vampirism

1. Just Say that Ruthven , Carmilla and Dracula are not your clasical vampires , they made a deal with the devil , were cursed by god at another point of the history , posessed by an spirit , changed his soul and body thanks to the alchemy and ancient rituals , a mage did it etc... the point is that the curse they carry isnt the same the others kindred carry and as consecuence the same rules do not aply to them.Do they try to disimulate this by proclaiming alligence to other clans? or are they the tomorrow antediluvians when their blood thickens?
2. Just give them merits that allow to do what legends say they do but how did they archive that? , are they in Golconda? There is an alternative? , are they allies or members of the Incomunu? are they really vampires.
3. Just say they are possesed
4. Play Requiem 2ED becuase it is a toolbox replacing the invictus with the camarilla and the belial brood with the sabbat and the baali , the clans that aren´t there can be ported following the conversion guide , and you can even port the canon characters from VTM becuase they are the best from masquerade along the by night books and what requiem lacks (In my version of Chicago Inganya is a Gangrel member or the circle of the Crone , Critias is a Daeva from the Brujah Bloodline playing in both the Camarilla and the Carthian side , Nicolai is a Mekhet from the universal tremere bloodline afiliated to the House of Tremere Covenant etc...)

Sure Noddism is true....for the particular Kindred strain only that is.

Meanwhile as for Dracula, Carmilla, etc, their origins are exactly how they are described in the books 100% (Dracula turned himself into a vampire using black magic and alchemy via the scholomance, Carmilla got killed by a vampire related to the Karnstein bloodline at her birthday ball, etc) and if there's no origin described like Ruthven's then it's a complete mystery.

[El Barto]

Dark Ages V20 Companion has a couple of vampiric creatures across several chapters, amongst them the pishacha

[Pnizzle]

Of course it's also common knowledge that "in universe" wise, there isn't really that much options available outside of Kindred regarding that Formori are not only repulsive and disgusting but also directly tied to the Wyrm and Pentex as well and also Bloodworms are even worse versions of this as well that have short unlives and also they're created during when a Kindred frenzies which results of them going wassial hence doesn't like they're actually playable but they're still "other types" of vampires presented though although sounds like to me that Bloodworms are still Kindred though although their description is body horror disgusting though just like the rest of the Formori, and of course Kuie-Jinn are basically Fu Manchu or based on rather hurtful racist orientalist yellow perilesque stereotypes of East Asians and nothing barely remotely resembling actual East Asian mythology and Ananasi are simply Werespiders pretty much not the typical undead type Vampire.

I guess one is better off introducing Vampires from other fictional works especially public domain ones hence this thread especially.

Not all fomori are repulsive. The most dangerous ones are incognito. Lust banes for example always look gorgeous.

Pentex makes up fake werewolves to mess with the Garou. Who's to say they don't experiment with vampires too (especially with some on the executive staff) and then create their own offshoot.

Another idea that could fit the original poster's idea, the characters in question who are different could also be Mages who get cursed or get too much paradox and have to suffer this way with a curse similiar to Caine's.

[Black Blood]

Not all fomori are repulsive. The most dangerous ones are incognito. Lust banes for example always look gorgeous.

Pentex makes up fake werewolves to mess with the Garou. Who's to say they don't experiment with vampires too (especially with some on the executive staff) and then create their own offshoot.

But still, there's something uncanny about Formori no matter how gorgeous they are, it doesn't change the fact they have no free will and controlled by wyrm banes that made them Formori in the first place and plus they're always Pentex aligned as well which is a turn off for many especially they go to Malfeas after they die to be eternally tortured I remember reading somewhere.

[Sergeant Brother]

One interesting possibility could be to use Kindred of the East but make them universal.that is to say that all vampires everywhere would be Kuei-Jin. They are no less ne’er exclusively Asian or even associated with Asia at all. As has been mentioned, KotE is actually more in line with traditional European vampire myths of a troubled soul returning to life rather than somebody transformed into a vampire by another vampire. There is already a mechanics set for this too, just remove the exclusively oriental elements.

Another possibility is to essentially make all vampires into the Tremere. Being a vampire requires being a wizard first, then using your magic to transform yourself into a vampire - not necessarily with the stolen but of other vampires but with your magic alone. That could even be a basis for organization within the vampiric world. Instead of Clans, you have wizardly orders that pass down necromantic magic that makes transforming into a vampire possible. This might allow a closer emulation of V:tM than all vampires being Kuei-Jin, because it could allow for a Clan-like political structure.

One important question that you need to ask yourself is whether or not you want vampires to become vampires independently or from other vampires. The entire game of V:tM is based on vampires making other vampires. If you remove that, then you remove the idea of the Clan and so the primary political structure of the game. If vampires don’t make vampires, then how do these vampires organize themselves, what forms the basis of rivalries or friendships, etc. You could make something like Clans that vampires just join voluntarily, but it would heavily diverge from V:tM - which may or may not be good.

I personally like the idea of all vampires being wizards, it might be interesting to create an alternative vampire game based on that premise. Wizard orders could replace Clans both politically and mechanically, everybody would have something like Thaumaturgy or Necromancy. Though the themes of damnation might have to be revised, since vampires choose their state.