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Different Strains/Versions of Vampirism other than Kindred in VtM

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post

    But still, there's something uncanny about Formori no matter how gorgeous they are, it doesn't change the fact they have no free will and controlled by wyrm banes that made them Formori in the first place and plus they're always Pentex aligned as well which is a turn off for many especially they go to Malfeas after they die to be eternally tortured I remember reading somewhere.
    They aren’t always Pentex aligned. Most are, but not all.

    They autonomy trait makes a similar struggle that kindred do with their beast.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      One interesting possibility could be to use Kindred of the East but make them universal.that is to say that all vampires everywhere would be Kuei-Jin. They are no less ne’er exclusively Asian or even associated with Asia at all. As has been mentioned, KotE is actually more in line with traditional European vampire myths of a troubled soul returning to life rather than somebody transformed into a vampire by another vampire. There is already a mechanics set for this too, just remove the exclusively oriental elements.
      I think this makes a interesting "Vampire/Changeling: the Lost" hybrid game where you play as a Vampire whose soul escaped from the afterlife after discovering how awful it truly is hence you return to your body/corpse (or another corpse that was originally not your own) and you start your new afterlife here in this world pretty much....

      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      Another possibility is to essentially make all vampires into the Tremere. Being a vampire requires being a wizard first, then using your magic to transform yourself into a vampire - not necessarily with the stolen but of other vampires but with your magic alone. That could even be a basis for organization within the vampiric world. Instead of Clans, you have wizardly orders that pass down necromantic magic that makes transforming into a vampire possible. This might allow a closer emulation of V:tM than all vampires being Kuei-Jin, because it could allow for a Clan-like political structure.

      One important question that you need to ask yourself is whether or not you want vampires to become vampires independently or from other vampires. The entire game of V:tM is based on vampires making other vampires. If you remove that, then you remove the idea of the Clan and so the primary political structure of the game. If vampires don’t make vampires, then how do these vampires organize themselves, what forms the basis of rivalries or friendships, etc. You could make something like Clans that vampires just join voluntarily, but it would heavily diverge from V:tM - which may or may not be good.

      I personally like the idea of all vampires being wizards, it might be interesting to create an alternative vampire game based on that premise. Wizard orders could replace Clans both politically and mechanically, everybody would have something like Thaumaturgy or Necromancy. Though the themes of damnation might have to be revised, since vampires choose their state.
      Then again I prefer diversity of Vampire types though, the ones risen from the grave or ones that turned themselves into vampires via occultish means or ones that are transformed into a vampire by another vampire which the far latter are more based on a curse than the former two.

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      • #18
        Back when KotE originally came out, there were more than a few people who experimented with making them a universal and/or European vampire breed. The main one I remember involved adapting them to Ancient Greek concepts and metaphysics. I can't remember much in the way of specifics. I think there was some use of Apollonian and Dionysian dichotomy for either Yin/Yang or Hun/Po (I can't remember which), and the Greek concepts of the Underworld including the Judges of the Dead (Minos, Rhadamanthys and Aeacus, and Odysseus's use of blood sacrifice to communicate with the spirits of the underworld in the Odyssey), mixed with some traditional Balkan vampire lore.

        Vampire: The Requiem devoted a lot more time to the subject of non-kindred vampires, including an entire book, Night Horrors: The Wicked Dead. The All Flesh Must Be Eaten sourcebook Atlas of the Walking Dead and GURPS Blood Types also have some interesting ideas.


        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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        • #19
          Well basically the main idea is that you have typical VtM Kindred as PCs perhaps but all the sudden Carmilla Karnstein shows up (first prowling towards the PCs as a Giant Black Cat before turning into her human form and greets our PCs just like how Beckett did in Bloodlines as you know the whole "The Warehouse your handy work I presume?") and she's exactly like how she's described in the book whose clearly not Kindred at all but a entirely different "breed" of Vampire that is unique to her bloodline perhaps.
          Last edited by Black Blood; 01-27-2019, 03:11 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
            Well basically the main idea is that you have typical VtM Kindred as PCs perhaps but all the sudden Carmilla Karnstein shows up (first prowling towards the PCs as a Giant Black Cat before turning into her human form and greets our PCs just like how Beckett did in Bloodlines as you know the whole "The Warehouse your handy work I presume?") and she's exactly like how she's described in the book whose clearly not Kindred at all but a entirely different "breed" of Vampire that is unique to her bloodline perhaps.
            I think you've got two main ways to go; if you want the character to follow most of the Cainite rules, make them a weird bloodline/experiment BUT keep them as a Vampire as per VTM with thematic changes representative of what you're going for - EG Dracula seems to have a beast and disciplines, but he has some power that lets him walk in the sun at the cost of his Vampiric disciplines. Even if not "Embraced" the character has an effective generation to represent power compared to true Cainites.
            Second option is build from the base up; this is for weirder options; Penanggalan, Lilitu, Shtriga, Dhampir etc. Redheads and suicides not buried correctly, any creation needed. Give them powers as required from disciplines/gifts/arcanoi and home brew, maybe have their powers represented by multiple merits.
            If you want something playable by PCs and as balanced as WoD provides, then I recommend keeping within the core rules with consistent rules for the change. Whether it's minimal or severe, keep it written down and adjudicated fairly. I also recommend normal purchasing progression for powers rather than merits or homebrew powers

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            • #21
              Life happened and I had to cancel the game I had hoped to run. If I had been able to go forward, I would have established in my game that the Tzimisce, Ravnos and Followers of Set were not Cainites - they were not descended from Caine.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                I think you've got two main ways to go; if you want the character to follow most of the Cainite rules, make them a weird bloodline/experiment BUT keep them as a Vampire as per VTM with thematic changes representative of what you're going for - EG Dracula seems to have a beast and disciplines, but he has some power that lets him walk in the sun at the cost of his Vampiric disciplines. Even if not "Embraced" the character has an effective generation to represent power compared to true Cainites.
                Nope I rather have Dracula, Carmilla, Ruthven, Varney, etc not follow Kindred rules as they're entirely unique vampires with their own variation of vampirism that exists outside the Cainite version of vampirism.

                Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
                Life happened and I had to cancel the game I had hoped to run. If I had been able to go forward, I would have established in my game that the Tzimisce, Ravnos and Followers of Set were not Cainites - they were not descended from Caine.
                Yet the Tzimisce, Ravnos, Followers of Set still have a beast and frenzy and a humanity/path/road system and they all also have sunlight damage so there are still Cainites no matter what because that's single factor that defines their strain so that idea is rather unworkable.
                Last edited by Black Blood; 01-29-2019, 11:56 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                  Yet the Tzimisce, Ravnos, Followers of Set still have a beast and frenzy and a humanity/path/road system and they all also have sunlight damage so there are still Cainites no matter what because that's single factor that defines their strain so that idea is rather unworkable.
                  It meant more for the lore and social interactions than it did for the game mechanics - there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                    It meant more for the lore and social interactions than it did for the game mechanics - there is no need to reinvent the wheel.
                    Although the game mechanics are still tied to Noddism that's the point no matter how you focused on the lore and social interactions.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                      Nope I rather have Dracula, Carmilla, Ruthven, Varney, etc not follow Kindred rules as they're entirely unique vampires with their own variation of vampirism that exists outside the Cainite version of vampirism.
                      That's why I presented the other option

                      Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                      Yet the Tzimisce, Ravnos, Followers of Set still have a beast and frenzy and a humanity/path/road system and they all also have sunlight damage so there are still Cainites no matter what because that's single factor that defines their strain so that idea is rather unworkable.
                      My personal theory (and what I'm doing with changing Kuei-Jin) is actually that "Vampires" of all varieties work in the same manner, have a beast, have disciplines, don't like sunlight, drink blood (Unless they have a discipline that changes it)
                      Even if they are not descendants of Caine; Setites can be right that Set wasn't created by caine, but all vampires play by the same rules. That's why the Tremere and Nagaraja (That definitely aren't descendants) use the same rules, same as Impundulu, Lhiannan etc with their creation Myths (and any other I may have missed)
                      In magic terms, the Paradigm of what a vampire can and can't do is fixed within a small scope, no matter the may that you achieve Vampirism; just like undead spirits pretty much all work like "Wraiths" from the murder of Abel to today.

                      The way supernaturals work are woven into the pattern of reality.

                      Originally posted by Black Blood View Post

                      Although the game mechanics are still tied to Noddism that's the point no matter how you focused on the lore and social interactions.
                      Not 100% The mechanics would stay the same in almost every way if the caine-myth were shown to be false
                      The only thing (I can think of) that is so closely tied is the Background of Generation and the powers that give a reading on it, like Blood Thaumaturgy or blood walk ritual. And they only technically give the blood pool remaining, and "approximate Generation" or trace back to 4th gen for Blood walk.
                      If you read "Generation" as the strength of vampirism in a target, just like we use "Lumens" to measure how much a lightglobe glows, a different term could be used to describe the effect and it still works
                      Last edited by Illithid; 01-30-2019, 02:13 AM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                        My personal theory (and what I'm doing with changing Kuei-Jin) is actually that "Vampires" of all varieties work in the same manner, have a beast, have disciplines, don't like sunlight, drink blood (Unless they have a discipline that changes it)
                        Even if they are not descendants of Caine; Setites can be right that Set wasn't created by caine, but all vampires play by the same rules. That's why the Tremere and Nagaraja (That definitely aren't descendants) use the same rules, same as Impundulu, Lhiannan etc with their creation Myths (and any other I may have missed)
                        In magic terms, the Paradigm of what a vampire can and can't do is fixed within a small scope, no matter the may that you achieve Vampirism; just like undead spirits pretty much all work like "Wraiths" from the murder of Abel to today.

                        The way supernaturals work are woven into the pattern of reality.
                        Then again not only are those things like the beast, frenzying, sunlight damage, etc not requirements of what makes a Vampire but rather what you proposing doesn't make sense at all if certain "Kindred" have different origins but yet they all share the same unifying traits it doesn't really make sense at all hence why it makes rather more sense that they all come from a single progenitor like Caine.

                        Otherwords, define what is a Vampire and what isn't or rather I don't think Kindred represent a definitive version of vampirism in the face of medium that presents a whole wide range of many variations and Kindred from VtM/VtR being one of them.

                        Point is, if all variations work in the same manner, then doesn't sound like variations to me but more like the same type of vampirism having slight differences but still the same thing either way in the end.
                        Last edited by Black Blood; 01-30-2019, 02:21 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                          Then again not only are those things like the beast, frenzying, sunlight damage, etc not requirements of what makes a Vampire but rather what you proposing doesn't make sense at all if certain "Kindred" have different origins but yet they all share the same unifying traits it doesn't really make sense at all hence why it makes rather more sense that they all come from a single progenitor like Caine.
                          It does make sense, which is why Noddism is the most agreed upon creation for ALL vampires, delusional clans like "Setites" are ignored
                          *But the truth in reality is rarely that simple*

                          Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
                          Otherwords, define what is a Vampire and what isn't or rather I don't think Kindred represent a definitive version of vampirism in the face of medium that presents a whole wide range of many variations and Kindred from VtM/VtR being one of them.

                          Point is, if all variations work in the same manner, then doesn't sound like variations to me but more like the same type of vampirism having slight differences but still the same thing either way in the end.
                          You're right, in all media, there are numerous versions of what a vampire is. Even drinking blood isn't a necessity, not is an issue with sunlight.

                          But the oWod never tried to represent ALL vampires with their world frame, some could be weird powers of kindred, some could be fomori, etc etc.
                          My theory is to make sense of canonical "Cainites" that have a different origin, but same systems (As an in game reason, out of game; that's just the rules we play with.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Illithid View Post
                            It does make sense, which is why Noddism is the most agreed upon creation for ALL vampires, delusional clans like "Setites" are ignored
                            *But the truth in reality is rarely that simple*


                            You're right, in all media, there are numerous versions of what a vampire is. Even drinking blood isn't a necessity, not is an issue with sunlight.

                            But the oWod never tried to represent ALL vampires with their world frame, some could be weird powers of kindred, some could be fomori, etc etc.
                            My theory is to make sense of canonical "Cainites" that have a different origin, but same systems (As an in game reason, out of game; that's just the rules we play with.
                            That's the point of this thread is to include those very numerous versions of Vampires and not all of them have to be Kindred at all but rather them existing alongside with Kindred.

                            But it seems you're now contradicting yourself which you're now saying Noddism is true hence going back to my main point about why Kindred have the same system but you keep saying they have "different origins" which is the part where it doesn't make sense and now it feels like we're going in circles here now.
                            Last edited by Black Blood; 01-30-2019, 01:52 PM.

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                            • #29
                              I've never been a fan of the "Cain" backstory, and I've never been comfortable with the stark differences between the clans in terms of temperament, cultural influence, and so forth, given that they all originated right around the same time, in the same place.

                              When I rewrote the World of Darkness for my games, one of the first things I did was snap the clan branches off the central trunk and make each one its own tree. Each clan starts independently, in its own time, in its own place. This way, the Setites can be Egyptian because, well, they started in ancient Egypt. The Brujah can be Carthage-crazy (AND have a Spanish name) because they originated in Carthage and when that was destroyed (by empire-obsessed, patrician, Roman Ventrue), fled primarily to Carthaginian/Phoenician colonies on the Spanish and French coast. The Lasombra can be Spanish and have committed to the Sabbat because they started the Sabbat in Spain. Etc. Etc. Etc.

                              The breakdown is, roughly:

                              GANGREL: Sumeria, 2500 B.C.
                              SETITES: New Kingdom, 1480 B.C.
                              MALKAVIANS: Jerusalem, 940 B.C.
                              TOREADOR: Athens, 590 B.C.
                              BRUJAH: Carthage, 400 B.C.
                              VENTRUE: Rome, 70 B.C.
                              NOSFERATU: Byzantium, 470 A.D.
                              LASOMBRA: Spain, 970 A.D.
                              CAPPADOCIANS: Kayseri, 1110 A.D.
                              TZIMISCE: Brasov, 1230 A.D.
                              TREMERE: Vienna, 1380 A.D.
                              ASURAS: India, 1700-ish

                              So if I wanted to do a one-off like Ruthven... what I would do is have him be his own clan. He could have come into existence whenever is thematically convenient, and could have any gifts, merits, disciplines, flaws, etc. Same thing with Dracula, but I made him a Tzimisce anyway.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Legendre View Post
                                I've never been a fan of the "Cain" backstory, and I've never been comfortable with the stark differences between the clans in terms of temperament, cultural influence, and so forth, given that they all originated right around the same time, in the same place.

                                When I rewrote the World of Darkness for my games, one of the first things I did was snap the clan branches off the central trunk and make each one its own tree. Each clan starts independently, in its own time, in its own place. This way, the Setites can be Egyptian because, well, they started in ancient Egypt. The Brujah can be Carthage-crazy (AND have a Spanish name) because they originated in Carthage and when that was destroyed (by empire-obsessed, patrician, Roman Ventrue), fled primarily to Carthaginian/Phoenician colonies on the Spanish and French coast. The Lasombra can be Spanish and have committed to the Sabbat because they started the Sabbat in Spain. Etc. Etc. Etc.

                                The breakdown is, roughly:

                                GANGREL: Sumeria, 2500 B.C.
                                SETITES: New Kingdom, 1480 B.C.
                                MALKAVIANS: Jerusalem, 940 B.C.
                                TOREADOR: Athens, 590 B.C.
                                BRUJAH: Carthage, 400 B.C.
                                VENTRUE: Rome, 70 B.C.
                                NOSFERATU: Byzantium, 470 A.D.
                                LASOMBRA: Spain, 970 A.D.
                                CAPPADOCIANS: Kayseri, 1110 A.D.
                                TZIMISCE: Brasov, 1230 A.D.
                                TREMERE: Vienna, 1380 A.D.
                                ASURAS: India, 1700-ish

                                So if I wanted to do a one-off like Ruthven... what I would do is have him be his own clan. He could have come into existence whenever is thematically convenient, and could have any gifts, merits, disciplines, flaws, etc. Same thing with Dracula, but I made him a Tzimisce anyway.
                                Thing is the main problem with this idea if each clan started independently then why do they have the same traits like the beast/frenzying, sunlight damage, disciplines, generation, etc? That's the part where it doesn't make sense hence the Kindred were originally designed with a single progenitor in mind hence it's easier to say they all come from Caine and meanwhile you have other variations and strains of vampires who are not Kindred at all.

                                Also Ruthven can't be Tzimisce nor Kindred at all because he's one of the weakest of his kind, he has no fangs and has to bite down via the strength of his jaws to "feed" or rather tearing and chumping down flesh like a Zombie that results in always killing his victims which is rather unworkable with the humanity system (especially Ruthven doesn't have a beast/humanity system at all) and he can be killed via normal means like you can shoot him in the head and he dies but always resurrects via a fullmoon hence he has no concept of "Final Death" at all not to mention he walk in the sun unharmed which Kindred can't do that which is why other variations of Vampires other than Kindred need to exist.

                                Also Dracula himself can't be a Tzimisce either but a rather more unique and powerful variation of Vampire that he got from the Scholomance.
                                Last edited by Black Blood; 01-30-2019, 02:08 PM.

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