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Different Strains/Versions of Vampirism other than Kindred in VtM

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  • Legendre
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    Thing is the main problem with this idea if each clan started independently then why do they have the same traits like the beast/frenzying, sunlight damage, disciplines, generation, etc? That's the part where it doesn't make sense hence the Kindred were originally designed with a single progenitor in mind hence it's easier to say they all come from Caine and meanwhile you have other variations and strains of vampires who are not Kindred at all.
    Well I wasn't about to bore everyone to tears by putting the entire backstory in the post, but there's a unifying story behind it (that is constantly undergoing mild revisions). I still won't bore everyone with all the details here, but the blessedly short version is that back in the day, The Adversary (Lucifer, Shaitan, etc.) sacrificed three of his greatest lieutenants to form three tablets that he hoped would undermine and corrupt humanity. These tablets -- the Night Tablet, the Beast Tablet, and the Soul Tablet hold the information (and part of the power) needed for a ritual that would corrupt humanity and bring it closer to darkness. The tablets have popped up from time to time, and have occasionally been used by enterprising, ambitious sorts to attempt to gain immortality and power.

    Vampires are all similar because they are all created through the same sort of (but not exactly the same) process. The clans formed with the Night Tablet (Setites, Lasombra, Brujah, Cappadocians, Tremere) have a connection to darkness and mysticism and are tempted to power through otherworldly means. Those created with the Beast Tablet are more monstrous in form (Gangrel, Nosferatu, Tzimisce, Asuras), and those created with the Soul Tablet (Malkavians, Toreador, Ventrue) tend towards manipulation and control, having insight and power over the souls of men.

    The tablets disappear when they are used, resurfacing years or decades or centuries later -- often in a new form (such as a scroll or codex).

    Anyway, that's the short version.

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  • Sergeant Brother
    replied
    To allow for any sort of vampire across myth and fiction, a single specialized system like that of V:tM would be inefficient. A better system might be a superhero setting, maybe like Champions or something, where various powers and drawbacks have point values and you can custom make your vampire with set point values. At that point, why limit it to vampires, you could have a setting where players be be any sort of supernatural creature. It seems like such a game, though, would lack the strong themes and flavor that made V:tM popular.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    Which is what I was trying to say that Kindred come from Caine which is explicitly and clearly stated by canon and then you contradict yourself saying they now didn't?
    In much of the flavour text, yes. Not in any official document have they stated it is fact, just what is the commonly held belief of most vampires. It's even an in-game point of contention, that some Clans refuse the term "Cainite" because of it's implication.
    But not all of the flavour text. Since 1st edition, Tremere self embraced. The clan works like any other. Nagaraja self embraced, the bloodline works like any other vampire, Impundulu say they were created when a Necromancer brought a powerful spirit in to him that kept him from death, Followers of Set treat Set as the first Vampire, not Caine, the Liabon don't follow the Caine mythology. Even in V20 Companion, there's a mention of the Ramanga Section on their creation myth -
    Sidebar Pg 87 "Does this mean Ramanga really don’t descend from Caine? They certainly believe so, and this chapter reflects their own interpretation. If you want to make them a Cainite bloodline though, their progenitor used blood sorcery to summon an Abyssal creature to imbue the Ramanga with power."

    This means that it is in cannon, that they are not descendants of Caine, except as a optional house rule.

    *Edit* The "Drowned Legacies also seem to dispute the Caine creation story*

    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    What you're missing the point on is that all those things should be part of their particular strain of vampirism not having disciplines mimicking them because without those, they'll just revert back what their strain does.

    Point is I shouldn't have to use disciplines to keep up with the pace especially they all cost blood points hence they're not permanent but rather temporary features because no matter what type of disciplines or rituals Kindred to mimic literary vampires, they always revert back to their original state such as sunlight damage and such they originally were in the beginning hence they're all still technically the same.
    I'm trying to say that much of what you want is possibly already represented in the system in one way or another. Disciplines aren't always activated, many are permanent (Such as the Daimoinion one I mentioned and Viscisitude 5) If your Vampire of choice got their powers by infernal means, then the system already incorporates having discipline levels without the earlier levels and other ST granted boons that can represent whatever you want.

    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    Ummm...aren't everysingle Kindred described having fangs though?
    Setites can feed through a 6ft tongue/probiscus thing, I think there's a merit for Nosferatu to do that as well.
    Those affected by the Bloodworm Bane/Fomor get a probiscus to feed.
    Valeran in Dark ages lets you feed from breath for one power, across a room.

    While most of the rules do say "Fangs" Grumpy is saying that it doesn't really change anything if you say it's a barb instead. the rest all works as intended.

    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    Oh I also forgot to point out that Vampires from older folklore and 19th century literary Vampires can have sex too (which the Vampires from the Balkins are fertile and produce Dhampyrs) which Kindred unless they're high humanity can't however.
    I am very aware of the 19th century Vampire sex connection, since that's pretty much the metaphor for vampires being sexually overt in a repressed society, blood=sex and all that.
    Vampires with low humanity or paths can still do it, with blood expenditure, merit or ritual. Dhampir and Dhampyr exist as two different things, but both from procreation of vampire.

    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    Yet are you aware that Vampires from older folklore and 19th century literary can walk in the sun unharmed right and sunlight damage was a much later invention adopted by Hollywood (as the Kindred are based on) since then right? Hell I'm even aware that even Dracula from the novel and even Carmilla being similar to Dracula are immune to fire as in if you fired bullets at them they'll go through them like thin air and bombs and nukes won't kill them either which means you have to have very specific means to kill them (although they can be still be harmed by bullets and fire during day time but it won't kill them though).

    Well I'm saying that the beast/frenzying/etc should only be reserved for Kindred only while other Vampires like Dracula, Carmilla, Ruthven, etc don't have them because they're not Kindred at all.
    I'm trying to give you ways to represent them in the system, even though I disagree with it being needed or even warranted in the system (As I stated above, and before, there are numerous mentions of non-Caine descended vampires, but they all work the same way because that is how the reality works for anything that is a "Vampire" *Excluding Kuei-Jin*
    But honestly, even though I'm trying to show you that you can use V;tM for these kinds of vampires, what you are looking for isn't in the scope of the setting or system.
    Having a different system for each Vampire would be like trying to use D&D stats for a Beholder with HPs etc against a Street Samurai from Cyberpunk in a Seventh Sea adventure. You could botch it together, but if you want that kind of thing to be represented well; look for a different system or build one that can let you explore what you have in your mind. It's not a bad idea that you have. It sounds intellectually very interesting, but what you want to do isn't designed to be done in here.
    Last edited by Illithid; 01-31-2019, 01:35 AM.

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  • Black Blood
    replied
    Originally posted by Illithid View Post

    I'm saying Noddism makes sense and is the most agreed upon view because everyone matches their versions of Vampirism; Not that it is the fact of what happened in Pre-history.
    Which is what I was trying to say that Kindred come from Caine which is explicitly and clearly stated by canon and then you contradict yourself saying they now didn't?

    Originally posted by Illithid View Post
    The system as currently presented does have have some ways of representing these one-offs like Ruthven and Dracula
    Walk in the Sun - Thin Bloods can do that, Powers can let you do it too, like Necromancy; Corpse in the monster 5 - Gift of Life
    No Fangs - Take a flaw.
    Not on Humanity - Roads and Paths (Any vampire with a code of conduct, even an inhuman one)
    Control over their beast and not-needing a road/path - Daimonion level 6; Pact (In fact that power can grant a wide range of options
    No death, resurrect on a full moon. - That's hard, but a powerful Thaumaturgy ritual could maybe do it. OR a limited version of Viscisitude 5 (Dark ages V20 version)
    Rise from a Grave instead of Embrace - Already a Thaum Ritual
    What you're missing the point on is that all those things should be part of their particular strain of vampirism not having disciplines mimicking them because without those, they'll just revert back what their strain does.

    Point is I shouldn't have to use disciplines to keep up with the pace especially they all cost blood points hence they're not permanent but rather temporary features because no matter what type of disciplines or rituals Kindred to mimic literary vampires, they always revert back to their original state such as sunlight damage and such they originally were in the beginning hence they're all still technically the same.

    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

    Fangs are not a system, they are an aesthetic note. The game has no rules for the condition of your teeth. Saying a vampires feeds through a barb in its tongue would not impact the rules.
    Ummm...aren't everysingle Kindred described having fangs though?

    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    Sun light and fire impose mechanical handicaps on a vampire, so it is not simply a super powered creature. They both also impose thematic handicaps, in so far as they remind the players that vampires are monsters. Sun light and fire could serve the same function with other types of vampires; mechanical handicaps on power, and thematic reminders of being monsters. Come to that, almost everything (that is not rocks) takes damage from fire - even people, who do not take damage from sunlight. Even if your special vampires are immune to damage from sun light, they should not be immune to damage from fire, because nothing is immune to fire.
    Yet are you aware that Vampires from older folklore and 19th century literary can walk in the sun unharmed right and sunlight damage was a much later invention adopted by Hollywood (as the Kindred are based on) since then right?

    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
    Frenzy and the humanity system are arguably the purpose of the game - how horrible will you PC be to survive another night? Humanity is how that level of evil is tracked, and the beast and frenzy are waiting for the PC to fail. If your game does not involve that, then you are not running VtM.
    Well I'm saying that the beast/frenzying/etc should only be reserved for Kindred only while other Vampires like Dracula, Carmilla, Ruthven, etc don't have them because they're not Kindred at all.

    Oh I also forgot to point out that Vampires from older folklore and 19th century literary Vampires can have sex too (which the Vampires from the Balkins are fertile and produce Dhampyrs) which Kindred unless they're high humanity can't however.

    Anyways to sum up this thread so far, I've been suggesting to port all variations of vampirism into the same setting with VtM vampires being one of them as a hypothetical experiment but everyone else = Lets convert them all to Kindred because Kindred are the "definitive version" of vampirism.
    Last edited by Black Blood; 01-30-2019, 10:41 PM.

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    Yet is is from Caine since all Antediluvians share a common trait such as the beast, frenzying, humanity system, damage from sunlight, fangs, generation system, etc hence they must come from a single progenitor...
    Fangs are not a system, they are an aesthetic note. The game has no rules for the condition of your teeth. Saying a vampires feeds through a barb in its tongue would not impact the rules.

    Sun light and fire impose mechanical handicaps on a vampire, so it is not simply a super powered creature. They both also impose thematic handicaps, in so far as they remind the players that vampires are monsters. Sun light and fire could serve the same function with other types of vampires; mechanical handicaps on power, and thematic reminders of being monsters. Come to that, almost everything (that is not rocks) takes damage from fire - even people, who do not take damage from sunlight. Even if your special vampires are immune to damage from sun light, they should not be immune to damage from fire, because nothing is immune to fire.

    Frenzy and the humanity system are arguably the purpose of the game - how horrible will you PC be to survive another night? Humanity is how that level of evil is tracked, and the beast and frenzy are waiting for the PC to fail. If your game does not involve that, then you are not running VtM.

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  • Illithid
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post

    That's the point of this thread is to include those very numerous versions of Vampires and not all of them have to be Kindred at all but rather them existing alongside with Kindred.

    But it seems you're now contradicting yourself which you're now saying Noddism is true hence going back to my main point about why Kindred have the same system but you keep saying they have "different origins" which is the part where it doesn't make sense and now it feels like we're going in circles here now.
    I'm saying Noddism makes sense and is the most agreed upon view because everyone matches their versions of Vampirism; Not that it is the fact of what happened in Pre-history.


    The system as currently presented does have have some ways of representing these one-offs like Ruthven and Dracula
    Walk in the Sun - Thin Bloods can do that, Powers can let you do it too, like Necromancy; Corpse in the monster 5 - Gift of Life
    No Fangs - Take a flaw.
    Not on Humanity - Roads and Paths (Any vampire with a code of conduct, even an inhuman one)
    Control over their beast and not-needing a road/path - Daimonion level 6; Pact (In fact that power can grant a wide range of options
    No death, resurrect on a full moon. - That's hard, but a powerful Thaumaturgy ritual could maybe do it. OR a limited version of Viscisitude 5 (Dark ages V20 version)
    Rise from a Grave instead of Embrace - Already a Thaum Ritual

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  • Black Blood
    replied
    Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post

    I wouldn't have to be Caine though. They could descend from some other original vampire, they could all have been transformed into vampires by the same effect (like a spell, the machinations of a demon, etc.), or they could have similar traits because what ever causes the vampiric state has consistent qualities.
    I could accept the ideas that they come from a different progenitor (while having Cain as exactly how he's described in the Bible that was because he wasn't originally a vampire though) despite the fact it might undermine the Christian themes that VtM is constructed around like taking one block out and everything falls apart but I entirely disagree that the "Vampiric State" should have consistent qualities because you're once again defining what Vampirism is and what isn't in the face of the "Our Vampires are Different" trope.

    Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
    Does Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum mean that vampires are alike? Because it seems to me like the Toreador and Nosferatu are extremely different from each other, as are the Tremere and the Brujah, or nearly any two Clans, especially the original ones.
    I thought I already I've explained and already made obvious by now what the Tweedle Dee and Dum effect was, it doesn't matter how different the clans are which is the "Dee and Dum" part but the "Tweedle" part is that all of them have sunlight damage, frenzying, the beast, generation, fangs, etc.
    Last edited by Black Blood; 01-30-2019, 06:59 PM.

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  • Sergeant Brother
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post

    Yet is is from Caine since all Antediluvians share a common trait such as the beast, frenzying, humanity system, damage from sunlight, fangs, generation system, etc hence they must come from a single progenitor that is the source of all of those traits described above, since if vampires came from their individual antediluvian without Caine or a Single Progenitor then why are all the Vampires technically the same then?

    This is the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum effect I was also trying to explain as well.
    I wouldn't have to be Caine though. They could descend from some other original vampire, they could all have been transformed into vampires by the same effect (like a spell, the machinations of a demon, etc.), or they could have similar traits because what ever causes the vampiric state has consistent qualities.

    Does Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum mean that vampires are alike? Because it seems to me like the Toreador and Nosferatu are extremely different from each other, as are the Tremere and the Brujah, or nearly any two Clans, especially the original ones.

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  • Black Blood
    replied
    Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
    Generation is the only mechanic which is Noddist, and even that only ties vampires back to the Antediluvian founder and not to Caine. The Antediluvians could come from anywhere and generation would still work. Well, it would work as well as it currently does, which is flavorful but extremely unbalanced.



    What is the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum effect on vampires?
    Yet is is from Caine since all Antediluvians share a common trait such as the beast, frenzying, humanity system, damage from sunlight, fangs, generation system, etc hence they must come from a single progenitor that is the source of all of those traits described above, since if vampires came from their individual antediluvian without Caine or a Single Progenitor then why are all the Vampires technically the same then?

    If Vampires came from their individual antediluvians then all of them shouldn't suffer from things like sunlight damage, frenzying, beast, humanity system etc which would mean that one clan has sunlight immunity but they're weak during daylight hours while sunlight burns that other clan and so on.

    This is the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum effect I was also trying to explain as well.
    Last edited by Black Blood; 01-30-2019, 06:44 PM.

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  • Sergeant Brother
    replied
    Generation is the only mechanic which is Noddist, and even that only ties vampires back to the Antediluvian founder and not to Caine. The Antediluvians could come from anywhere and generation would still work. Well, it would work as well as it currently does, which is flavorful but extremely unbalanced.

    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post

    Because it keeps the game more interesting and diverse instead of expecting the same algorithms?

    You're failing to see that the mechanics entirely assumes the Noddest myth is true hence results "Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum" effect on Vampires.
    What is the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum effect on vampires?
    Last edited by Sergeant Brother; 01-30-2019, 06:33 PM.

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
    As for "Noddist mechanics", the only one that I recall tying into decent from Caine is the Generation background, and I replaced that with Requiem's Blood Potency a decade ago.
    That is a good call, and would neatly cut the "Noddist" mechanics issue.

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  • No One of Consequence
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

    On a related point, one of the problems with KotE was the mechanical complexity.
    The worst part being that you had to spend a chunk of your freebie points to raise your stats to the baseline minimum a Keui-jin was supposed to be at. If Stat A is supposed to start at rank X, then it should default to rank X to begin with, not X - y. (For similar reasons, I house-ruled that all Mage characters start with Arete 2.)

    As for "Noddist mechanics", the only one that I recall tying into decent from Caine is the Generation background, and I replaced that with Requiem's Blood Potency a decade ago.

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  • Black Blood
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

    Why bother to create an entirely new set of mechanics for each new type of vampire? It would be the smart move to keep things mechanically simple. The differences could easily be handled by differences in the types of weaknesses and banes the vampires face. Further, the similarities could come from that fact it is vampiric humans we are talking about - not vampire humans, and vampire horses, and vampire monkeys, etc. The human quality is universal, for good and for bad.

    On a related point, one of the problems with KotE was the mechanical complexity.
    Because it keeps the game more interesting and diverse instead of expecting the same algorithms?

    You're failing to see that the mechanics entirely assumes the Noddest myth is true hence results "Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum" effect on Vampires.

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  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    But it seems you're now contradicting yourself which you're now saying Noddism is true hence going back to my main point about why Kindred have the same system but you keep saying they have "different origins" which is the part where it doesn't make sense...
    Why bother to create an entirely new set of mechanics for each new type of vampire? It would be the smart move to keep things mechanically simple. The differences could easily be handled by differences in the types of weaknesses and banes the vampires face. Further, the similarities could come from that fact it is vampiric humans we are talking about - not vampire humans, and vampire horses, and vampire monkeys, etc. The human quality is universal, for good and for bad.

    On a related point, one of the problems with KotE was the mechanical complexity.

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  • Black Blood
    replied
    Originally posted by Legendre View Post
    I've never been a fan of the "Cain" backstory, and I've never been comfortable with the stark differences between the clans in terms of temperament, cultural influence, and so forth, given that they all originated right around the same time, in the same place.

    When I rewrote the World of Darkness for my games, one of the first things I did was snap the clan branches off the central trunk and make each one its own tree. Each clan starts independently, in its own time, in its own place. This way, the Setites can be Egyptian because, well, they started in ancient Egypt. The Brujah can be Carthage-crazy (AND have a Spanish name) because they originated in Carthage and when that was destroyed (by empire-obsessed, patrician, Roman Ventrue), fled primarily to Carthaginian/Phoenician colonies on the Spanish and French coast. The Lasombra can be Spanish and have committed to the Sabbat because they started the Sabbat in Spain. Etc. Etc. Etc.

    The breakdown is, roughly:

    GANGREL: Sumeria, 2500 B.C.
    SETITES: New Kingdom, 1480 B.C.
    MALKAVIANS: Jerusalem, 940 B.C.
    TOREADOR: Athens, 590 B.C.
    BRUJAH: Carthage, 400 B.C.
    VENTRUE: Rome, 70 B.C.
    NOSFERATU: Byzantium, 470 A.D.
    LASOMBRA: Spain, 970 A.D.
    CAPPADOCIANS: Kayseri, 1110 A.D.
    TZIMISCE: Brasov, 1230 A.D.
    TREMERE: Vienna, 1380 A.D.
    ASURAS: India, 1700-ish

    So if I wanted to do a one-off like Ruthven... what I would do is have him be his own clan. He could have come into existence whenever is thematically convenient, and could have any gifts, merits, disciplines, flaws, etc. Same thing with Dracula, but I made him a Tzimisce anyway.
    Thing is the main problem with this idea if each clan started independently then why do they have the same traits like the beast/frenzying, sunlight damage, disciplines, generation, etc? That's the part where it doesn't make sense hence the Kindred were originally designed with a single progenitor in mind hence it's easier to say they all come from Caine and meanwhile you have other variations and strains of vampires who are not Kindred at all.

    Also Ruthven can't be Tzimisce nor Kindred at all because he's one of the weakest of his kind, he has no fangs and has to bite down via the strength of his jaws to "feed" or rather tearing and chumping down flesh like a Zombie that results in always killing his victims which is rather unworkable with the humanity system (especially Ruthven doesn't have a beast/humanity system at all) and he can be killed via normal means like you can shoot him in the head and he dies but always resurrects via a fullmoon hence he has no concept of "Final Death" at all not to mention he walk in the sun unharmed which Kindred can't do that which is why other variations of Vampires other than Kindred need to exist.

    Also Dracula himself can't be a Tzimisce either but a rather more unique and powerful variation of Vampire that he got from the Scholomance.
    Last edited by Black Blood; 01-30-2019, 02:08 PM.

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