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Different Strains/Versions of Vampirism other than Kindred in VtM

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  • Different Strains/Versions of Vampirism other than Kindred in VtM

    First of all I've found this interesting Web Comic by Spearhafoc which is a huge crossover of almost every 19th century literary and Public Domain Vampires

    Now the point is inspired by this web comic I've been thinking of this idea for a long time that what if Kindred are not the only Vampire types that exist in the world and especially if there's Vampires that are not Kindred at all that exist in the world?

    For example, Bram Stoker's Dracula at least his novel incarnation although Dracula already exists in VtM but as a Tzimisce but honestly I never liked how it treated Dracula but rather in the novel, Dracula actually turned himself into a Vampire via occultist means as in black magic and alchemy he learned from the Scholomance hence why he's able to walk in the sun unharmed but it weakened him or without resorting to fortitude and pretty much has Methuselah/Antediluvian/Caine like levels of raw power (probably not disciplines but rather closer to True Magic from Mage especially from Arcane Knowledge) but greatly vulnerable like catholic imagery immediately repels or harms him regardless the faith of the wielder, can't enter a home without invitation, can only sleep in native soil, has no shadow, no refection on any reflective surfaces, can't show up in cameras and even portraits of him crumble over time, can't cross running water, and his eyes glow inferno red when gets pissed off or engaging in Vampiric things, etc.

    Especially Carmilla herself though that she's also able to walk in the daylight but of course she has to sleep in a coffin or confined space of her victims blood, she's also repelled by Catholic Imagery regardless of the wielder especially Hymns harm her as well, Of course she change into a giant black cat, walk through solid matter like noclip mode and can open locked doors and such and how she became a vampire is that she actually died after being drained by a Vampire in the chest after her birthday ball whose related to Karnstein blood (like Count Karnstein) who committed suicide who was evil in life as so as they say.

    Especially I don't think this scene is possible in VtM.....

    Of course there's also 19th century literary vampires like Carmilla, Lord Ruthven, Clarimonde, Sir Francis Varney, etc since all of them walked in the sun with no problem either just like Dracula especially Ruthven and Varney can be killed via normal means but they can be brought back to life the rays of a Full Moon hence another reason I never liked how VtM handled both Dracula and Ruthven since they discarded their original source material and turned them into Kindred pretty much despite their differences. Hell there's even a obscure Vampire novel written in 1867 called "Vampire City" by Paul Feval which contains one of the most bizarre vampire incarnations to exist in literature which "Otto Goetzi" belongs to this strange breed which they basically glow green, they drink blood through their tongues, they make duplicates and "sub vampires" or "vampirculs" when they kill a mortal which they all merge together and they also function like biological clockwork which they have a hole in their chests which needles are used to "twink" them back into action if they get harmed that is not to mention there's a entire Vampire City in Yugoslavia called "Selene" which is shrouded in eternal night with a Full Moon always overhead as well.

    Basically in a world where different variations of Vampirism exists, I guess Kindred make up the majority but I guess they also persecute other Vampires from other variations as well?

    Especially it would make sense that VtM Kindred burn in sunlight, have a beast that they all must adhere rigid moral guidelines like Humanity, Paths, Roads, etc, They're all descended from Caine hence "Cainites" that get weaker with each generation, they can blood bond and create ghouls (while other variations of vampires can't) since Kindred/Cainites have a beast they all frenzy as well while other Vampires like Dracula, Carmilla, Ruthven, etc don't. Now imagine Dracula grabbing a rampaging Kindred in Frenzy by the neck and saying "So the beast, that's your bane not mine..."

    Now imagine that as a possibility....
    Last edited by Black Blood; 01-25-2019, 09:05 PM.

  • Ben Linus
    replied
    Vampires of different strains with no common origin can have traits in common by some sort of evolutionary or mystical convergence. It is not a problem in fact.

    And here is just pick up old concepts like Gaki, make Laibons, American Legacies and Lhiannas independent of Cain and that's it.

    One of the problems of Kuei Jins is that they are regionalized. A notion of something like the universal Kuei Jins would be interesting. And the Realms could be explained by a Specified Umbra and a discipline to deal exclusively with it.

    All together the Hun and Po'oh mechanisms (which emulate much more wraith than vampire) and the resonances of Yin and Yang are unnecessary. Although they can be added as the traditional Fifth Edition resonance system (or something less extreme and more linked to qualities and defects). And use the perpetual hunger of the P'reta and that's it. Perhaps add the ability to blow food at the first level of the discipline.

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  • Trollroot
    replied
    I am reading These Savage Shores. English vampires go to India, meet native ones. So far, pretty good.

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  • Leandro16
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post

    Actually the whole "cursed himself by renouncing God" is a invention from Francis Cord Coppla's movie which in actuality Dracula turned himself into a Vampire via alchemy and black magic via the scholomance and it was no curse either but more a form immorality that he discovered the easy way of getting it that is.
    Yeah I just mentioned it becuase the mekhet already got the ritual origin and didnt want to sound reiterative.

    PD:Another Idea Dracula fits more as a Baali than as a Tzimisce , his sunwalking can be justified as the result of dark thaumaturgy or high level daimonion , Scholomance being a Nephandi or Baali nest maybe both.
    Last edited by Leandro16; 02-01-2019, 06:29 PM.

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  • Black Blood
    replied
    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
    There are so many ways of getting cursed Dracula cursed himself by renouncing of God ,.
    Actually the whole "cursed himself by renouncing God" is a invention from Francis Cord Coppla's movie which in actuality Dracula turned himself into a Vampire via alchemy and black magic via the scholomance and it was no curse either but more a form immorality that he discovered the easy way of getting it that is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leandro16
    replied
    One of the things I like to "hint" in my games is that everyone has potential for vampirism it is something that just "awakens" as lilith did for caine who before all that was just a cursed creature.There are so many ways of getting cursed Dracula cursed himself by renouncing of God , others cursed himself by annoyed the old gods , some choose to become a vampire with a ritual , some were born that way and others just made a deal with demons.

    It is just that not all those original vampires embraced
    Clan Supposed Founder Supposed Origins
    Daeva (2750 AC) Gilgamesh The Hero King feared death so he sought immortality and in his seeking he found a demon who offered him a deal and so the clan of darkness was born.
    Gangrel (200.000 BC) Lilith The mother of all monster and whore of the red sea copulated with demons and awakened the power of darkness within Caine creating a great army of monster the Gangrel are only some of them.
    Mekhet (2610 BC) Imhotep The Faraon wanted to enslave the souls of all his followers in the afterlife but the priest and sage Imhotep refused creating a ritual to mummify himself and his followers.
    Nosferatu (837 ac) Narcissus When Narcisssus died he was sent to Hades to contemplate a love that would never respond but in the end Narcissus could only love himself and ended annoying Hades who expelled him from the realm of the dead.
    Ventrue (753 ac) Remus The brother who couldnt rule the day choose to rule the night by making a deal with powerful spirits awakening the darkness within himself.

    Note:The non present clans are bloodlines that popped throught history for example the LaSombra were born when an elder ventrue in Rome made a deal with a mekhet to learn sorcery but was later corrupted by his own power , the brujah were a Daeva bloodline born due the influence of the Baali over one of it┬┤s members (Troile).
    Last edited by Leandro16; 02-01-2019, 05:34 PM.

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  • Sergeant Brother
    replied
    Originally posted by El Barto View Post

    'Devil's Advocate' has so many layers of pun in this context­čśé
    Theology really did come in handy for being a lawyer...

    Leave a comment:


  • El Barto
    replied
    Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

    You got the Dark Prince of Darkness on speed dial, and you just have to name drop that, don't you?
    'Devil's Advocate' has so many layers of pun in this context­čśé

    Leave a comment:


  • Grumpy RPG Reviews
    replied
    Originally posted by Legendre View Post
    As for knowing about Satan, my day job is literally being the managing partner of a law firm. We're practically friends.
    You got the Dark Prince of Darkness on speed dial, and you just have to name drop that, don't you?

    Joking aside, this thread is pretty much classic internet arguing with strangers - its only going in circles. And as it is round, it does not have a point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Illithid
    replied
    GM: Why does your Lawyer have theology 4
    Player; I just thought I'd give them an interesting back story
    GM; Sure, I suppose. It's not like any of your powers work off Theology rolls

    Leave a comment:


  • El Barto
    replied
    I'm not pointing fingers, but could we keep the tone civil?

    Black Blood, I think what everyone's saying is that, instead of building a new creature from scratch, you can just adapt the existing template. Take away generation if you want, take away frenzy or modify the conditions, instead of humanity use a path that exists or you create or a system like aye-orun, use the existing powers to recreate supernatural abilities or create new disciplines. Use the kindred template as a toolkit, the system already does that to stat critters from other gamelines. It would involve significantly less work.
    Or create a new gameline. Lord knows I miss people creating fan lines for owod.

    Leave a comment:


  • Legendre
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post

    Then again if you really knew what Abrahamic Faiths especially Christianity were actually about....
    And there I was trying to keep things lighthearted. Sheesh,

    But since we're getting personal here, I'll just go ahead and say that I've got a PhD in Philosophy from UCLA and that among my AOCs are Medieval Theology and Philosophy of Religion. I've taught and designed syllabi for both courses. So I think I have a decent notion of what Abrahamic Faiths are "actually about."

    As for knowing about Satan, my day job is literally being the managing partner of a law firm. We're practically friends.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Blood
    replied
    Originally posted by Legendre View Post

    Interesting notion -- but I'm just going to go ahead, sit back with my Neo-Platonist conception of evil as nothing, and indulge in the notion that Satan is incapable of actually making something better when he acts in a way that is disproportionately in accord with the will for pleasure rather than the will for justice.

    That said, one could very easily decide that the inclusion of other influences in the execution of the ritual might alter the outcome and produce something that wasn't limited by sunlight, etc.

    For example, my most recent chronicle actually concerned the possibility of creating a new clan using an angel as the required sacrifice. That would have had startlingly different results than using the demon (which is what the PCs ended up causing to happen).

    Of course, then they promptly wiped out the fledgling clan -- so that storyline was short-lived.
    Then again if you really knew what Abrahamic Faiths especially Christianity were actually about, which is rather about suffering through life to achieve "heavenly awards" i.e. becoming "one" with the creator by abandoning the flesh for the spiritual, the entire reason why Lucifer/Satan is "Evil" is because they have humans embrace the flesh therefore earthly pleasures hence Vampirism should be a way to create a "afterlife" where one is free from either eternal damnation or slavery by a tyrannical deity where one is dead but yet they still get to enjoy the pleasures that the earthly realm offers pretty much. So I guess it's rather both for Justice and Pleasure that is.

    Hence it makes sense that Satan's version of Vampirism would actually be better compared to the Curse of Caine because the latter is designed to be a curse hence it's made for suffering which encourages asceticism to "lift the curse" (hence the beast/frenzying/humanity system) whilst the former would not be a curse but a empowered boone embodying the forces of darkness that is.
    Last edited by Black Blood; 01-31-2019, 02:35 PM.

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  • Legendre
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Blood View Post
    If Satan/Lucifer is behind it all, I doubt they'll create something so hindering which it makes more sense that the Kindred came from Yahweh hence from Caine because it's designed as a curse not a empowerment.

    If Vampirism really did come from Satan/Lucifer then it'll be much closer to Dracula's (and perhaps Carmilla's) versions of Vampirism since those versions of Vampirism are more of a empowerment from the forces of darkness (hence why they are repelled by Catholic Iconography automatically no matter how much faith the welder has) with the sole purpose to spit the creators face sort to speak not as a hindering curse that Kindred carry with them (hence why Dracula and Carmilla have no beast like the Kindred do) which would be the main difference.
    Interesting notion -- but I'm just going to go ahead, sit back with my Neo-Platonist conception of evil as nothing, and indulge in the notion that Satan is incapable of actually making something better when he acts in a way that is disproportionately in accord with the will for pleasure rather than the will for justice.

    That said, one could very easily decide that the inclusion of other influences in the execution of the ritual might alter the outcome and produce something that wasn't limited by sunlight, etc.

    For example, my most recent chronicle actually concerned the possibility of creating a new clan using an angel as the required sacrifice. That would have had startlingly different results than using the demon (which is what the PCs ended up causing to happen).

    Of course, then they promptly wiped out the fledgling clan -- so that storyline was short-lived.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Blood
    replied
    Originally posted by Legendre View Post

    Well I wasn't about to bore everyone to tears by putting the entire backstory in the post, but there's a unifying story behind it (that is constantly undergoing mild revisions). I still won't bore everyone with all the details here, but the blessedly short version is that back in the day, The Adversary (Lucifer, Shaitan, etc.) sacrificed three of his greatest lieutenants to form three tablets that he hoped would undermine and corrupt humanity. These tablets -- the Night Tablet, the Beast Tablet, and the Soul Tablet hold the information (and part of the power) needed for a ritual that would corrupt humanity and bring it closer to darkness. The tablets have popped up from time to time, and have occasionally been used by enterprising, ambitious sorts to attempt to gain immortality and power.

    Vampires are all similar because they are all created through the same sort of (but not exactly the same) process. The clans formed with the Night Tablet (Setites, Lasombra, Brujah, Cappadocians, Tremere) have a connection to darkness and mysticism and are tempted to power through otherworldly means. Those created with the Beast Tablet are more monstrous in form (Gangrel, Nosferatu, Tzimisce, Asuras), and those created with the Soul Tablet (Malkavians, Toreador, Ventrue) tend towards manipulation and control, having insight and power over the souls of men.

    The tablets disappear when they are used, resurfacing years or decades or centuries later -- often in a new form (such as a scroll or codex).

    Anyway, that's the short version.
    If Satan/Lucifer is behind it all, I doubt they'll create something so hindering which it makes more sense that the Kindred came from Yahweh hence from Caine because it's designed as a curse not a empowerment.

    If Vampirism really did come from Satan/Lucifer then it'll be much closer to Dracula's (and perhaps Carmilla's) versions of Vampirism since those versions of Vampirism are more of a empowerment from the forces of darkness (hence why they are repelled by Catholic Iconography automatically no matter how much faith the welder has) with the sole purpose to spit the creators face sort to speak not as a hindering curse that Kindred carry with them (hence why Dracula and Carmilla have no beast like the Kindred do) which would be the main difference.
    Last edited by Black Blood; 01-31-2019, 01:35 PM.

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