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Blood buffing and max traits

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  • Blood buffing and max traits

    Do you guys find the game mechanic of overcharging your physical stats too much?

    Having stats over 5 gets a bit crazy.

    A tremere with path of blood can basically go super saitama and dominate a fight in one round. This happened with 1 tremere crushing a gargoyle ancilla who was focused on defense.

    Should I keep a cap of 5 on stats even with buffing? Has anyone tried that?

  • #2
    Path of Blood takes a round, and pumping all your stats to compete with someone with skills and real combat disciplines like Potence, Protean or Celerity is prohibitively expensive.

    If by focused on defense you mean he had high fortitude, that's because V20 fortitude is terrible.


    • #3
      I house ruled fortitude to be auto successes vs physical.

      Every munchkin fight I see they take generation 8th or are tremere with path of blood. Boost strength to 9. Clinch for 16+ bashing. Or hold and bite combo for one shot death.


      • #4
        Is there a reason the Gargoyle didn't blood-buff as well? In vampire-on-vampire combat, it should be fairly even.


        • #5
          The problem really isn't blood buffing. Blood buffing is vitae expensive and falls down really quickly compared to actual investments in combat stats and Disciplines.

          Generation being a Background has been a problem since 1e because starting with 5 points in it is simply the best outright investment of creation points in possible. No other Background is as difficult to get in-play, and between five Background points and fifteen freebies you have plenty of points to take Generation 5 and most else you might want.

          The grappling rules have been a problem for just as long.

          Though I'm really not sure how you get something like 16+ bashing with buffing alone, and the "Hold + Bite" in V20 isn't as bad as it used to be since Bite uses Dexterity even in a Hold, so you're looking at having to buff up Strength and Dexterity to pull it off (which is a lot of vitae even at Generation 8... you only have 15).


          • #6
            Originally posted by Nosimplehiway View Post
            Is there a reason the Gargoyle didn't blood-buff as well? In vampire-on-vampire combat, it should be fairly even.
            A sneak attack tackle. He failed his roll for knockdown status.

            Looking back he could have buffed but I think he was low on blood and was trying to meld into stone.


            • #7
              Honestly it isnt that the blood buff is broken , it is that all the mechanical system of VTM is nuked in pieces.

              This is the reason why the system is narrative and rule zero is encouraged by the authors and yes fortitude is shit as written

              The Greatness of the Masquerade lies within his uber interesting characters and the Cloak and Dagger political games.

              Hunger pool


              • #8
                @Heavy Arms
                They had a bit of potence but yes. If you buff strength to 9 you can clinch for heavy damage even without it. I was shown this trick by a player ages ago who knew the game well. He played a brujah with only 2 in physicals and still wrecked shop by buffing right.

                No arguements there. I’m just wondering if my home brew could balance it out a bit more.


                • #9
                  We managed to balance a lot of things by scraping half the combat system to merge it with our own (we are currently working on our own RPG game and thanksfully, our system is compatible in places), reworked Celerity, Potence and Fortitude, and now we're having fights that are much more interesting.


                  • #10
                    Strength 9 is... ~4 damage before soak, and vampires half damage rounding down. Tanking that is pretty easy.

                    And the problem is that your house rule is trying to fix something broken by fixing something else, instead of fixing the broken bits.


                    • #11
                      The Tremere Player is doing what Tremere (Players and characters) do best - exploiting multiple things to their advantage.
                      1- Blood Potency can be great, but if you spike your generation, you still usually have the original blood pool to play with on buffing. (Limit their use of Principal focus of Vitae infusion) It's also a gamble. You might fail or only get a couple of successes and not even let you buff above say 6.
                      2- In Rocket tag ( an ambush is king. No defense means that more of the attack successes get turned in to damage.
                      3- Clinching has always been an issue in WoD games.

                      Ordinarily there are checks and Balances; you could suddenly be 4th gen, but be really really hungry (because you started with 10-15 blood points and now have a pool of 30-50)
                      Pumping stats can be done, but blood potency does increase the capacity to do that ( - V5 does it differently, so we're talking pre v5 here) a Tremere with 2/3/2 or the like needs 8 BP to pump to 5s, plus 1 for the power. That's 9 blood points spent out of maybe low teens. If the gambit doesn't work, they're in a big mess. (+3 more per attribute cap above 5 to be fully pumped)

                      Then, how are they feeding to top up again. They are pretty hungry, make them roll when feeding off a human (on the hungry self control difficulties to see if they frenzy, drain the human; roll for degeneration AND have to fix the Masquerade....
                      They'll be less likely to follow up with the same tactic if it has drastic consequences, like all NPC Tremere have already realized because they can do the same thing.

                      But it's not just blood buff. Obfuscate from 2 can get the Ambush off, Big Sword or Claws to make it agg(City Gangrel get the combo with Celerity to Boot) and you have a dead vampire victim.

                      If you can out plan another vampire for combat, you will generally win.

                      To your original Question; Max traits?
                      I don't limit it beyond the gen max applied as per generation/Blood buff. Fortune favours the well prepared; But if the players are willing to do it, remember to get their enemies to play equally dirty too.


                      • #12
                        About the Max traits question:
                        If it served I changed the mechanic of the blood buff to it allowing to rise a physical stat up to the generational/Blood potency maximun.This takes raw power from the blood buff but makes it more versatile and usable due the lower blood consumption.

                        But the reason why I changed this wasnt to balanced things as nothing was balanced to being with but becuase I dindt want vampires to have too much strengh and Potence/Vigor in my games gives a bonus of +2 strengh instead of 1 auto-sucess and also gives (Fusing potence and fortitude sounds broken but it isnt as the rest of the game is also reworked and it makes sense to have some extend of superesistence to tolerate the backlash of your superstrengh if not your body would just break).

                        The Great problem of combat:
                        The whole system honestly but the main two problems are
                        • To many rolls and even worse with celerity
                        • The Damage types (Too much agravated)
                        As a player I must confess that i love to make my characters use a lot of minions , animalism and dominate becuase if you are playing raw you want to avoid the mechanics and rolling dice in combat like an ETS , in masquerade the best way to win a combat is choosing not to fight yourself.

                        To many rolls my arms hurts

                        First than nothing we need to talk about rolling iniciative this should be an automatic thing decided by Dex +Iniciative, period.

                        Secondly we need to admit that the roll to hit this is ******* it is an extra roll unnecesary when you are already taking in acount the dex attibute for the iniciative and a dodge manuever exist,

                        Thrid we need to talk about celerity this should substract dice from the attackers and give an iniciative bonus instead of extra actions becase having 4 turns while your enemy has 1 while a dodge manuever exist is just broken and means too many extra rolls.

                        Counter Mechanic
                        Now about the dodge manuever every player should be allowed to make a dodge action that allow to soak all kinds of damage with a dex + atletism roll instead of a traditional roll with resistence and if the roll nullifies all the succeses of the enemy then

                        Grab Mechanic
                        Grab Mechanic should be an opposed roll of strengh + damage in the next turn but should also allow the apponent to roll if he was caught in a embosqucade well the thing of surprise attacks is that they are effective and combat doesnt have to be fair.

                        But it should be allowed to respond with a dodge action against the strengh roll

                        Auto Success
                        All dice above 10 should be automatic success at this point you are not playing on human levels and it is unnatural to have bad luck with the dice but you can still lose , the another guy with a great dicepool can have luck and you still have to get some successes with the 10 dice that you are rolling against that other superhuman guy down the street

                        Having Autosucces correctly regulated means that there is site for coherent power scales in the mechanics. FREAKING BEUTIFUL

                        Tipes of Damage
                        We have a lot of Agg damage overload this should be limited no discipline of power below 4 or 5 if not a combat discipline should be allowed to deal Agg for that we have banes like fire and sunlight With should be also reworked to give a more agonizing death instead of a fast one (Insert big sadistic smile) but this is another thing.

                        Blunt damage:It is not halved but each blood point expent should heal 2 levels of Blunt damage.
                        Letal Damage:Unshoakable unless you have fortitude armor or some way to buff your resistence luckily only certain things can cause this type of damage to kindred like attacks to the hearth , head and protean claws.Each level of damage in letal damage is healed at the cost of 1 BP
                        Agg Damage:Only Magic , Concentrated Sunlight , Fire and the particular Banes of a character should be allowed to cause this type of damage that ignores traditional resistence (only soakable with fortitude).Can only be healed while sleeping at the cost of 5 BP per wound.

                        Hunger pool