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The Masquerade is Mechanicaly unsustainable

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  • #61
    V1 to V20 included no explicit feeding memory manipulation, though it sometimes implied one. V5 has one, as explicit as it gets.
    I can quote the passage a fourth time, but do I really have to?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Cifer View Post
      V1 to V20 included no explicit feeding memory manipulation, though it sometimes implied one. V5 has one, as explicit as it gets.
      I can quote the passage a fourth time, but do I really have to?
      Vague Dark poetry isnt a mechanic and "as far as I am concerned" the mind erasing thing in V5 is a Dominate 1 thing a discipline that only 4 of 13 clans have
      Last edited by Leandro16; 04-06-2019, 07:30 PM.


      https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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      • #63
        Originally posted by blailton View Post
        The game you want already exist: VtR. Please let Requiem be Requiem, and Masquerade be Masquerade. I want Gen. I want Antes. I want Cain. I don't want deux ex machina amnesia bite neither deux ex machina glitch on cameras/mirror.

        This, just this. It is as accurate as it gets.


        Masquerade has it faults, the whole Classic World of Darkness was not very well thought initially, but it is compelling, it got tons of lore, and a dedicated fan base.

        Do I like all the crossover lore inconsistencies? Do I like that is not really well designed for splat interaction? No and no, but again it is your game, each one was supposed to be played in isolation, no other splats stealing the spot light.

        If someone wants different mechanics, then please use Chronicles of Darkness, those are REALLY well thought, and use whatever background setting floats your boat (the Translation Guide is your best bet)
        Last edited by lbeaumanior; 04-26-2019, 07:50 AM.

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        • #64
          I was under the impression that the feeding process was supposed to be even more euphoric than sex, and most mortals who casually experience it become dazed after the process. Having little to no memory of what the vampire actually did to them.

          And if we go by the population theory that there is 1 vampire for every 50k to 100k humans, and divide that up by the 7.5 billion humans currently estimated to be on earth right now, we only come away with a grand total of 75k to 150k vampires. That's enough to populate a large town, or a small city. Now that might sound like a lot at first, but you have to remember that this population is scattered all over the planet, as opposed to being clustered together in a single area.

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          • #65
            Sorry life has been a while but I had to do a lot of things away from this fourm, so as suppper late reply
            Originally posted by Knowledgeseeker View Post
            Embracing already comes at a cost. Congratulations. Now you have a kid. Saddled with a child, how is that not a cost or a burden?
            Because not every Clan works by that logic. In fact my preferred clan, Gangrel, specifically says in lore:They choose to embrace sometimes ON THE SPOT just because they feel the person is strong enough, then they leave them for a year to fend for themselves, if they die they die. Does that sound like a cost? No, does that sound like a burden? Not personally.

            Neither is it in the case of embracing someone as a favor so they're not potentially a thinblood and let that person raise that new childe, similar to being a surrogate carrying a child to term for another person/family.

            I can think of several more ways that are not a "you have a kid/person relies on you".

            I personally a fan of the more student teacher relationship for kindred, then the parent/child, especially for my clan of choice in that if the student wishes to drop out,go their own way or learn from another. I have nothing against your way though.

            As for your P.S. that's your sects thing, I'm much more classic Anarch and Sabbat leaning on embracing, it happens like an accidental pregnancy, sometimes and it's okay as long as someone else picks up the slack.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              One of the things to remember is most vampires don't WANT to make multiple vampires because--really, what is the benefit unless you plan to send a bunch as enslaved cannon fodder to bum rush a stronger vampire?
              This whas even said in a V20 sourcebook of how those rare non Giovanni Family embraces are happening.
              Well in one of my DA20 chronicles it has happened that an Autarkis Caitiff Elder did something to recover from his power loosing with the migration period because it whas from his perspective more important to save time and get stronger faster to be secured when some other cainite decide to just us him and his child as a stepladder to greater power. Well the plan worked and he secured a half dozen cainite knights to get an upstart power while later having ghouls as squires that get knighted with an embrace if one of the last knights where killed or they learned everything they could and so it would be a waste to not embrace such a talented person.


              As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
              First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
              Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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              • #67
                Came in to see a sequel to my own masquerade thread. Completely dissapointed.

                1- Most drinks are done during a moment of passion or to someone unconscious. Person needs to be a victim during the few times this is not the case.
                2- People have to rationalise an attack they were aware of as something of vampiric origin.
                3- People have to conclude somehow that they have something to gain from spreading this story and nothing to lose.
                4- Person needs evidence
                5- person needs to give this story to a media outlet who's big enough to influence people but also which needs to go through it's own process of being taken seriously and not being squashed, which is a far more extensive process than 1-4.
                6- News needs to be possitioned in a way that attracts attention and not put in a little box ten pages in.
                7- readers have to take this media outlet seriously
                8-At no point during this process a vampire steps in.


                So like, let's just imagine there's a very generous 1/8 chance that each step goes towards breaching the masquerade. All together that's a
                .0000000596046448% chance of a serious masquerade breach per feeding.
                Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 07-02-2020, 02:24 PM.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • #68
                  I have the feeling that i spoke the truth that everyone knew but also refused to acknowledge with this post and now some people are in negation phase

                  The masquerade never was sustainable we just handwaved how things worked becuase we just wanted to tell an story , a lot of us assumed or better said houseruled that the kiss erases the memory something that is explicit on requiem but in masquerade is actually the opossite becuase people adicted to the kiss exist and remember the pleasure from the bite triying to replicate it

                  Then we get masquerae friendly stuff like this


                  This is V5 but it also happened similar stuff in revised where in the prologue Alastair informs his childe about how his fellow brujah kills a girl every night he goes to hunt and sees that as a normal thing isntead of a horrible menace to the masquerade that needs to be put under a blood hunt add to this the overpopulation and is easy to see...as the fucks up acumulate the masquerade is unsustainable and this post just constructive crisiticsm signaling an obvious flaw from game design out of love for the universe that i want to see evolve mechanicaly
                  Last edited by Leandro16; 07-02-2020, 08:22 PM.


                  https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                    I have the feeling that i spoke the truth that everyone knew but also refused to acknowledge with this post and now some people are in negation phase

                    The masquerade never was sustainable we just handwaved how things worked becuase we just wanted to tell an story , a lot of us assumed or better said houseruled that the kiss erases the memory something that is explicit on requiem but in masquerade is actually the opossite becuase people adicted to the kiss exist and remember the pleasure from the bite triying to replicate it

                    Then we get masquerae friendly stuff like this


                    This is V5 but it also happened similar stuff in revised where in the prologue Alastair informs his childe about how his fellow brujah kills a girl every night he goes to hunt and sees that as a normal thing isntead of a horrible menace to the masquerade that needs to be put under a blood hunt add to this the overpopulation and is easy to see...as the fucks up acumulate the masquerade is unsustainable and this post just constructive crisiticsm signaling an obvious flaw from game design out of love for the universe that i want to see evolve mechanicaly
                    I agree. Vampire bite never erased memory in VtM.

                    I think it erases in v5, trough.

                    Said that, I don't like the idea. Something so CONVENIENT happening to justify to convince me that the masquerade is possible, backfire, ans my suspension of desbelief is damaged.

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                    • #70
                      1- Trusting art is stupid. Art is all about screaming "YO DAWG THIS GAME IS ABOUT VAMPIRES LOOK AT THE COOL SEXY EMPOWERED VAMPIRES" It doesn't represent the masquerade. Imagine if the V5 fashion spreads were representative of what vampires actually wore, or if women in the dark ages smashed people with logs rather than something practical just to prove their strength? Art is dumb shit.

                      2- You sure he's not lying to have you hate this guy? People lie a lot, vampires lie more.

                      Your argument is bad and you know it. You look like you're struggling to convince yourself, rather than trying to convince others. The masquerade, at least before vampires were having messy criticals all the time and lost their Auspex/Dominate/Obfuscate abilities, was rock solid.


                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                      • #71
                        I let Harry Dresden explain how the Masquerade is SUPPOSED to work to poor Butters:

                        “Last year in the U.S. alone more than nine hundred thousand people were reported missing and not found...That's out of three hundred million, total population. That breaks down to about one person in three hundred and twenty-five vanishing. Every year....maybe it's a coincidence, but it's almost the same loss ratio experienced by herd animals on the African savannah to large predators.”

                        “Time after time, history demonstrates that when people don't want to believe something, they have enormous skills of ignoring it altogether.”

                        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                        1- Trusting art is stupid. Art is all about screaming "YO DAWG THIS GAME IS ABOUT VAMPIRES LOOK AT THE COOL SEXY EMPOWERED VAMPIRES" It doesn't represent the masquerade. Imagine if the V5 fashion spreads were representative of what vampires actually wore, or if women in the dark ages smashed people with logs rather than something practical just to prove their strength? Art is dumb shit.

                        2- You sure he's not lying to have you hate this guy? People lie a lot, vampires lie more.

                        Your argument is bad and you know it. You look like you're struggling to convince yourself, rather than trying to convince others. The masquerade, at least before vampires were having messy criticals all the time and lost their Auspex/Dominate/Obfuscate abilities, was rock solid.
                        Not helpful.

                        I agree the art doesn't necessarily depict reality, though, at least as defined by the gameline itself.
                        Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-03-2020, 06:29 AM.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by blailton View Post

                          I agree. Vampire bite never erased memory in VtM.

                          I think it erases in v5, trough.

                          Said that, I don't like the idea. Something so CONVENIENT happening to justify to convince me that the masquerade is possible, backfire, ans my suspension of desbelief is damaged.
                          You can still fuck up a witness might see you feeding and now you have to clean the mess or maybe the victim has high wp and resist the kiss (like delirium) but you indeed hit a point with this becuase from game design perspective we want the masquerade to be viable but also falible


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                          • #73
                            -Nobody notices the kiss when asleep
                            -nobody notices the kiss during the an episode of passion.
                            -Nobody notices the kiss when knocked out
                            -People who experience blood loss generally aren't in a brilliant state of mind.
                            -Nobody cares for that time you thought you were bitten by a vampire. Assuming you piece together that it was A Vampire and not some other nonsense (lizard people, aliens, a bad dream)


                            Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                            • #74
                              MyWifeIsScary All your arguments are destroyed by the fact that blood dolls people adiccted to the kiss and who obviously remember it exist something that i have mentionated a lot in this post

                              We can debate all you want but if you start ignoring facts becuase it suits your argument then all the talk is void of reason and i say this becuase i usually like your post a lot
                              Last edited by Leandro16; 07-03-2020, 01:56 PM.


                              https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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                              • #75
                                Also i would like to mention that a lot of vampires are incompetent once in a while heck look at Anabelle who is a primogen she was beaten down by an adult woman in canon wich she tried to feed on due to being careless now multiply this by the absurd population of vampires in the modern nights , sabbats , thin bloods etc... and...the masquerade is unsustainable.
                                Last edited by Leandro16; 07-03-2020, 01:57 PM.


                                https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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