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The Masquerade is Mechanicaly unsustainable

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
    Also i would like to mention that a lot of vampires are incompetent once in a while heck look at Anabelle who is a primogen she was beaten down by an adult woman in canon wich she tried to feed on due to being careless now multiply this by the absurd population of vampires in the modern nights , sabbats , thin bloods etc... and...the masquerade is unsustainable.
    Thankfully, the humans of the World of Darkness are truly ****ing stupid.

    Seriously, though, the Masquerade is actually at multiple levels of fail state. In real life, huge numbers of people believe in ghosts, angels, aliens, demons, and some things that might be real but are invisible. People believing in vampires is not the problem and someone encountering one is not actually going to break the Masquerade. The fact that Hunters exist proves that it happens all the time. No, the BROKEN MASQUERADE only happens when someone bites someone on camera and then the news networks, cops, and military TAKE IT SERIOUSLY without someone shutting it down.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • #77
      who da fuck takes a blood doll seriously? They're near universally low-lives not connected to anyone of importance, suspected of drug abuse. under the influence of disciplines, drugs, low blood, blackmail, likely to mistrust police and media, and fearful of vampire reprisal, what do you think they are going to do?

      please, consider what the reality of the situation would be before you throw around statements of 'ignoring facts'.


      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        who da fuck takes a blood doll seriously? They're near universally low-lives not connected to anyone of importance, suspected of drug abuse. under the influence of disciplines, drugs, low blood, blackmail, likely to mistrust police and media, and fearful of vampire reprisal, what do you think they are going to do?

        please, consider what the reality of the situation would be before you throw around statements of 'ignoring facts'.
        Yes, which is why there's actually a robust middle ground.

        When a Prince is concerned about a vampire breaking the Masquerade, he's not afraid of the Second Inquisition being created [which is probably as bad as it could possibly get before full-on collapse] but more like the Frog Brothers.

        Most hunters will live tragically short lives but it doesn't take THAT much effort for them to get some gas cans and burn down a vampire's haven during the day.

        And that is obviously going to piss the local vampires off.

        I also wager that 99% of the people who DO find out vampires are real later rationalize it away or just try and live their lives WITHOUT becoming a dedicated warrior against evil.

        Example:

        "I remember my sister being killed at a party by a guy who drank her blood. My psychologist explained this is a false memory created by her sudden and inexplicable death. I mean, the alternative is silly."
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-03-2020, 03:12 PM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          Yes, which is why there's actually a robust middle ground.

          When a Prince is concerned about a vampire breaking the Masquerade, he's not afraid of the Second Inquisition being created [which is probably as bad as it could possibly get before full-on collapse] but more like the Frog Brothers.

          Most hunters will live tragically short lives but it doesn't take THAT much effort for them to get some gas cans and burn down a vampire's haven during the day.

          And that is obviously going to piss the local vampires off.

          I also wager that 99% of the people who DO find out vampires are real later rationalize it away or just try and live their lives WITHOUT becoming a dedicated warrior against evil.

          Example:

          "I remember my sister being killed at a party by a guy who drank her blood. My psychologist explained this is a false memory created by her sudden and inexplicable death. I mean, the alternative is silly."
          Agree. This can be more or less seen in the TV Series Lucifer. There is it good shown on three characters finding out angels and demons are true, how their whole live is turned upside down and it shown there too, that you can say the truth about what you are and people will not believe it.
          Okay it is a series and is about heaven and hell but I think it can give you a good impresion about how people can deny it.


          As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
          First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
          Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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          • #80
            "If you depend on the stupidity of your enemy to succed you have alredy failed"
            As fuck ups by a growing and overpopulated group of monster who feed on blood the masquerade weakens until eventualy is not substainable


            https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
              "If you depend on the stupidity of your enemy to succed you have alredy failed"
              As fuck ups by a growing and overpopulated group of monster who feed on blood the masquerade weakens until eventualy is not substainable
              Yes, which is why the Second Inquisition exists.

              Mind you, I did have a Priest of Caine PC say that he thinks the Masquerade is unbreakable.

              "One day, the Masquerade will be broken. It will be on all the networks, all the buzzfeeds, and everyone will believe. Then the next day, no one will. The people who let it happen, the Camarilla Elders and Sabbat Cardinals, will be called to the Middle East and feed the hunger of their masters. The Silence of the Blood will be restored and all the evidence will vanish--destroyed by mindless humans who won't remember doing it. The Masquerade is a convenience but not for vampires. It is a convenience for gods. The worst thing we can do is rouse them to intervene."


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Leandro16 View Post
                "If you depend on the stupidity of your enemy to succed you have alredy failed"
                As fuck ups by a growing and overpopulated group of monster who feed on blood the masquerade weakens until eventualy is not substainable
                And yet, we live in the oligarchy of today. Some people believe in America (like, literally any of it). Climate scientists reached a consensus on climate change for almost half a century ago and the common people are still conflicted over the issue. many people still think China is communist,

                Human stupidity, Ignorance and fear keep us from a utopia. Now Imagine a world where some of the oligarchs can rewrite memories. Yeah, nah. Saying the masquerade shouldn't work is like insisting you could definetly win in a brawl with a more physically capable and experienced man because you 'have a plan' and watched some Steven Seagall recently.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

                  And yet, we live in the oligarchy of today. Some people believe in America (like, literally any of it). Climate scientists reached a consensus on climate change for almost half a century ago and the common people are still conflicted over the issue. many people still think China is communist,

                  Human stupidity, Ignorance and fear keep us from a utopia. Now Imagine a world where some of the oligarchs can rewrite memories. Yeah, nah. Saying the masquerade shouldn't work is like insisting you could definetly win in a brawl with a more physically capable and experienced man because you 'have a plan' and watched some Steven Seagall recently.
                  Well, the more physically capable and experienced man can broke his own leg alone trying to kick you, like Anderson Silva :B


                  I think people not paying att. to what scientists says is a point to Leandro, through. Poor people, the majority btw, will believe someone claming be attacked by vampire even if the science says vampires myth are bs and move accordingly.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by blailton View Post
                    I think people not paying att. to what scientists says is a point to Leandro, through. Poor people, the majority btw, will believe someone claming be attacked by vampire even if the science says vampires myth are bs and move accordingly.
                    I disagree. I think most people will assume that if someone says that, they'll believe it's a guy with fake teeth or they were on something.

                    It takes a very large amount of evidence to prove something no one believes.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      I disagree. I think most people will assume that if someone says that, they'll believe it's a guy with fake teeth or they were on something.

                      It takes a very large amount of evidence to prove something no one believes.
                      Depends. What no one believes, exactly? Flat earth? Autism vax?

                      MyWifeIsScart said science exposes climate changes no less than 50y ago until now and yet people choose desbelieve science; and then used it to justify people don't believing vampires, when actually this piece of information is a double-edged sword. It can be used to argue against OR favorably to people believing vampire existence.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by blailton View Post

                        Depends. What no one believes, exactly? Flat earth? Autism vax?

                        MyWifeIsScart said science exposes climate changes no less than 50y ago until now and yet people choose desbelieve science; and then used it to justify people don't believing vampires, when actually this piece of information is a double-edged sword. It can be used to argue against OR favorably to people believing vampire existence.
                        I believe the disbelief in climate change is a large sign of simply how much influence the rich and powerful have over people [as no rationale person disbelieves climate change but there's an economic incentive to] as well as how much people don't want to believe in a problem.

                        Likening it to vampires, climate change denial and anti-vaxx share the common factor that it makes the people who believe in it feel safer.

                        Hence, you couldn't get people to believe in vampires because it'd make them feel less safe.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by blailton View Post

                          Depends. What no one believes, exactly? Flat earth? Autism vax?

                          MyWifeIsScart said science exposes climate changes no less than 50y ago until now and yet people choose desbelieve science; and then used it to justify people don't believing vampires, when actually this piece of information is a double-edged sword. It can be used to argue against OR favorably to people believing vampire existence.
                          The problem with this entire argument is it ignores the thing keeping the Masquerade intact; disinformation is a real thing, and it also exists in the World of Darkness. Climate change is a perfect example, and no, it doesn't support the premise the Masquerade is unsustainable. Let me explain. Forwarning, this is a very American-centric argument.

                          Science has proven a thing to be real. We can see visible, tangible effects of the thing being real. We suffer consequences of the thing being real. But a powerful group of the rich have a vested interest in not making changes because of climate change, so they attack the concept. They attack the reason for climate change. They argue it might be real, but it might be a good thing. They argue the other side of the debate are in it for the money while they themselves are also clearly in it for the money. They turn facts into political arguments, and the end result is a population who pick a side based on political affiliation. And in the process, climate change becomes less of a thing that is real and more of a simple talking point. Occasionally we'll see a candidate make it a centerpiece of their platform, with a big commercial showcasing how bad climate change is, but those are the exceptions rather than the norm. The norm being using climate change as a point to attack the other guy.

                          In effect, climate change stops being a thing that is real. It becomes a reason for people to hate one guy and like the guy opposed to him. Money has made a real situation with real effects that really will and really does affect daily life and made it unreal. A global issue turned into the equivalent of education reform.

                          If money alone, no superpowers involved, can take a world-destroying, factually-proven thing that absolutely affects everyone in real, tangible ways and turns it into a talking point during a debate for the majority of people, why should vampirism be different?

                          Even in a WoD overpopulated with vampires, they're congested to the high population centers. They won't be affecting everyone. Joe Hicks on his Nebraska farm ain't gonna see no vampire, no vampire attacks, never even meet no ghouls. Suburban mom Karen might live in a town with one or two biters, but that's a masquerade easy to maintain with little effort. And in big cities, there will be leaks. There will be breaches. There will be gaping holes.

                          But we see in the actual world around us people denying the facts in front of their faces, we see major cover-ups, we see the population itself justifying that even though video evidence proves a person said a thing, they didn't actually say it and it's all fake news. We have a global pandemic that has killed 120k in less than half a year, and people argue still that it's just the flu and it's all fine, because their side of the argument says it must be fine. And enough people believe this that it's a common argument between two sides.

                          Then add magic powers into the mix. In the real world, you can't Dominate people into forgetting covfefe, into not talking about covid on TV, into taking the blame for Australia catching fire and believing they accidentally lit the fuse, into boldly stating their recording of an assault and murder was heavily editted by them to point the blame where they want. But in the World of Darkness, you can. With magic powers and a population already primed to dispute factual evidence contrary to their chosen beliefs, maintaining the Masquerade (as it is presented in VtM) means only patching up the biggest holes, and letting the population debate and politicize the issue themselves. Sure, you'll have people who see the truth and believe it; that's why WoD always had hunters. Because the Masquerade was never depicted as perfect; small holes are inevitable, so long as the base holds true.

                          The Masquerade isn't mechanically unsustainable any more than real world issues are mechanically unsustainable.


                          Writing up Clanbook: Aabbt

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Vysha View Post
                            The Masquerade isn't mechanically unsustainable any more than real world issues are mechanically unsustainable.
                            Mind you, I don't think suggesting it IS unsustainable is actually a bad thing.

                            Why?

                            Because the whole game has always had a sense of the apocalypse (meaning "revelation") about it. So, the idea we're ticking closer to the Broken Masquerade isn't a bad thing.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              Mind you, I don't think suggesting it IS unsustainable is actually a bad thing.

                              Why?

                              Because the whole game has always had a sense of the apocalypse (meaning "revelation") about it. So, the idea we're ticking closer to the Broken Masquerade isn't a bad thing.
                              I think there is a difference between the masquerade get regulary breached which unlocks hunters and it is unsustainable which is like the Gehenna Scenario where suddenly one video get leaked and the masses believe it. True the 2nd Inquisition makes it more dangerous on a whole new lvl but we are still far from leaking to the masses. I think right now the problem is more if there is a snowden out there that will whistleblow it because if the gouvernment says it from itself, that there are vampires out there, than people will not believe it with one half saying the president is getting crazy like now with Trump and the second half will say it, the president is trying to use something absurd to justify a totalitarian regime because he hopes if goes with something myth like together with faking evidence we will be still and take it.

                              But if there is a leak then it will taken way more serious specially if the whistleblower is going with his face on him. Then you can only hope that the masses will just assume it is his try for 5 minutes of fame but many more will be open to believe it because if it something they want to cover up they are afraid that masses will find out their corpses in the cellar so it has to be true.


                              As I am from Austria I need to clarify two things.
                              First my native language is german and so please point out if the english I write is broken so I can improve.
                              Second I do not own VTMV nor any line after M20 because it is not out there and I wait for the translation.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                Mind you, I don't think suggesting it IS unsustainable is actually a bad thing.

                                Why?

                                Because the whole game has always had a sense of the apocalypse (meaning "revelation") about it. So, the idea we're ticking closer to the Broken Masquerade isn't a bad thing.
                                I think you're confusing two different ideas here; the Masquerade being sustainable, and the Masquerade being breakable. They aren't one and the same.

                                The Masquerade is sustainable. So long as humans can be convinced en mass that vampires aren't real and are the stuff of myth, legend, conspiracy theory or what have you, the Masquerade can be sustained. As long as large breaches can be covered up, explained away, kept localized and whatnot the Masquerade can be sustained. As long as kindred and those humans aware of the truth have a vested interest in keeping the wider public in the dark, the Masquerade can be sustained. It is mechanically sustainable.

                                But calling it sustainable isn't saying it's unbreakable. There's a wide chasm between saying "a huge population of kindred means inevitably the entire Masquerade will shatter" and saying "some large-scale event could wake the mortal world to the truths of the World of Darkness". The former is dubious at best, the latter is obviously possible. Debating the issues with the first doesn't imply anything about the last.


                                Writing up Clanbook: Aabbt

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