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The Masquerade is Mechanicaly unsustainable

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  • #91
    I know this had seemingly come to a conclusion, I'm of the opinion it's still unsustainable. all empires fall, all programs fail, everything has it's end, even the current masquerade as it stands in V5, especially regarding the Camillara, is actually the 2nd version of it that we know about. The first version died not because someone broke it but because the NSA were able to crack a website, now imagine how much the Kindred that will be embraced in the next few generations would be in when Cybernetic implants/wearables that are interconnected are the standard as a cellphone? Not full minority report stuff but like google glass and it never runs out of battery because it's powered off your body's natural heat and bloodflow (a long shot with some issues now but in 20 to 30 years) may become standard and from outpatient surgery. And that's not going into partial limb conversions and replacement due to cybernetic limbs becoming the new chic. And before you say that's far fetched, Since 2014 openbiotics has been creating lowcost 3d printed limbs, earlier this year we have gotten to the point cybernetic limb research, that is public, has been able to achieve "ultra-precise mind-controlled prosthetic". Now imagine the security a retail version of a prothestic by a company like apple that can also act as a smart phone/device that can be modified to enhance physical abilities would have for the average consumer? Panic button, GPS, cameras with audio? How long would kindred embraced from the 90s to today right now of people like us would be able to even feed? While there would be vested interest and counter mesasures, the general public wlll find out kindred exist because footage like that doesn't disappear or get swept under the rug forever and sooner or later the wrong group of kindred is gonna trust the wrong group of Kine and get blown wide open. So imo, sooner or later the bill will come due.

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    • #92
      I think a campaign about the collapse of the Masquerade would be interesting.

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      • #93
        V5 already has mechanics for both Generation AND Blood Potency. Both matter with Generation being more of a measure of their *potential* than straight power right off the bat. It's a good system. Check it out.

        As for the Masquerade being untennable, note a few things:

        1) Vamps do NOT normally overpopulate a city. Especially Camarilla cities. A Prince will generally decline the right of progeny if they feel there are already too many vamps in his city. The general rule is that vamps make up 1/100,000ths of the human population of the greater metropolitan area of a city. That being said, I've seen a few city sourcebooks in the past that blatantly break this rule.

        2) When you're dealing with a human population that is blissfully unaware of the existence of vampires (even if secret government organizations are), it's surprisingly easy to feed and not break masquerade. Mortals may remember someone seducing or attacking them. They'll remember feelings of utter euphoria. But that's about it. A quick lick and all evidence is gone. Said mortal may feel a bit weak afterwards, but not really understand what happened to them and just shrug it off like it was a dream or they were under influence and their mind is playing tricks on them. The real danger is in being recorded by someone's smart phone when the vamp does something obviously supernatural. And I do stress obvious. Powers like Dominate and Presence rarely if ever break the Masquerade. But some tiny 5 foot nothing girl suddenly picking up a 300 pound bouncer and chucking him across the parking lot would definitely qualify.

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        • #94
          To me these ideas always run into how someone defines 'realism' for a fictional game setting. And fandoms being what they are, you're likely to get a large number of (conflicting) views about how disbelief is to be suspended and what 'makes sense.' I mean 'magic' potentially can allow al ot of leeway to deal with technology, but what is a 'rational' explanation for someone may be another person's cheap Looney-toons-esque copout.

          Ultimately its a 'do what you want for your story' situation. I think the Storyteller system is flexible enough to allow for borrowing/implanting concepts from one game system into another (although the amount of work needed to do so is another matter) and so if you want to inject more 'Requiem' into Masquerade then go for it. Nothing is stopping you. I like to inject more Awakening into Ascension, so I'm not gonna criticize. But there's also literally no reason the 'Masquerade' system can't work as advertised and be internally consistent. You might disagree with the perceived 'realism' of that internal consistency but that's a subjective, not an objective issue.

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          • #95
            "Blood doll subculture" was a thing that was mentioned in passing in quite a few of the older books, but White Wolf never went into detail or gave them a book of their own, did they? It seems like willing Herd solves a lot of this.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Reasor View Post
              "Blood doll subculture" was a thing that was mentioned in passing in quite a few of the older books, but White Wolf never went into detail or gave them a book of their own, did they? It seems like willing Herd solves a lot of this.
              Ghoul Fatal adicction is the most similar thing we got (Amazing book by the way)

              Now a willing herd is a masquerade breach , reality is a lot of people donĀ“t know how to protect a secret and you having a group of humans willing to give you their blood means well that you have already spilled the beans.

              This is why vampires need to have short term amnesia bites.


              https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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              • #97
                ... You don't need to breach the Masquerade to willingly get blood out of people. Anyone heard of medical play? Flogging? Edge play with knives? Hell, run an actual bloodmobile and keep the proceeds. Get thee a lab coat or some black leather, and you really don't have to worry about fangs.

                Key reminder: they only have to be willing to give it to you, they don't have to know you're drinking it or deriving nutrition from it.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Bladedancer View Post
                  ... You don't need to breach the Masquerade to willingly get blood out of people. Anyone heard of medical play? Flogging? Edge play with knives? Hell, run an actual bloodmobile and keep the proceeds. Get thee a lab coat or some black leather, and you really don't have to worry about fangs.
                  yeah, but that's not what vampires do in the setting, they DO use their fangs,
                  and I fail to see the appeal of a vampire game where you don't use your fangs


                  -

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                  • #99
                    Not to mention that means assuming basic competence by vampires but the truth is a lot of masquerade licks are incompetent like anabelle who in 1st Ed Chicago By Night was torpored by a woman he tried to assault in the street to feed.


                    https://www.deviantart.com/cicerondixit/gallery

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                    • And those vampires die pretty quick. The example you used fell into torpor.

                      -Feeding during sex, Indistinguishable.
                      -Feeding from the sleeping.
                      -Feeding from folk you knocked the fuck out, used animalism 3 on, or will use dominate 3 on.

                      Concerning blood dolls: Your average person needs about six weeks to recover from losing a point of blood. If we assume you can take three points of blood from a person safely then they are getting fed from once every two weeks on average. In modern times that's a bit easier because you can give them a TV, some light drugs, have someone get them a lot of food and some health supplements on the regular, and they can daze around as slackers till the next feed content with their lot in life. Dominate makes this a lot easier. The difficulties of this are such: You can't really share people like in the movies because you'll inevitably overfeed from someone eventually. Unless you've got 14 average people this only works as a suplement rather than something that keeps you can rely on exclusively. Though it is likely you can find good people and give them supplements to make this more efficient You might need to deal with these people's friends and family coming to 'rescue' them from their easy going life and you've also got to consider that your enemies might target your herd. You can feed from such a herd without really breaking the masquerade, given how out-of-mind they all are.


                      The issue is players, and a few characters, don't go through a period of tutelage with their character's sire. They don't really know how to feed intellegently. The books and the storyteller should really pick up their game on this front.
                      Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 08-16-2020, 06:10 AM.


                      Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                      • Its always interesting to theorycraft and discuss RPG settings but the reality is pretty much every make belief setting ever written in any RPG does not have suistanable worlds. Its a fantasy where werewolves and vampires exist, if you are looking to explain such a place as a real thing you are in the wrong hobby.

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