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  • Ostarion
    started a topic Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition sales

    Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition sales

    So, I am one of the 'neonates' when it comes to Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition and and I really like reading up on all the campaigns here and elsewhere which is inspiring. I'm waiting for Chicago (the full hardback or at least the fully edited pdf) to try my hand at it but I was wondering how well its doing when compared to the rest of the industry.

    Does the rpg industry track who the top sellers are?

  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Justycar View Post
    Aquelarre is a great game, I hope you enjoyed. The only local game that have achieved international impact, for the moment. The author. Ricard Ibañez, had published recently other title about the conquest of America. About Kult, I identify two more problems for the sells, added to the crudity of the art and the censure. First, the mechanics do not perform well in a horror game, or so is said by most of reviews. And more important, there are two editorials to publish and translate all the foreign games. Nosolorol published Kult after many crowdfoundings of Vampire, Mage and Changeling. They are suffering to put an end V20 th anniversary line of supplements. May be, and this is a personal speculation, our market is saturated of crowdfoundings. Fortunately, V5 is performing very well. Even though as a result to the problems with Camarilla handbook, the books was published only one month ago and Anarch this week. It could be possible that Chicago by Night or The Fall of London awaits 2 or 3 years to being translated and republished, to most of the costumers the language is a barrier.

    But I hope, the same way that France by night is a wonderful piece of art and background, a love letter to Dark ages, that more licensed supplement could be published. I know that Modiphius CEO revealed in an interview the possibility of a Rome by Night and a Paris by Night for V5 a few month ago. A Madrid or Barcelona by Night would be cool setting for the unexplored Europe in Masquerade. But my best wishes are under a Dark ages Granada by Night, playing the fall of Al andalus and the Omeyas.
    From personal experience, I feel a bit saturated with crowdfunding, so you may be right about that! Kult is very much a niche product, and that niche needs to have a hungry market for it to make it successful. I would say, however, that it never used to be a major seller before either - just a notable game for horror enthusiasts.

    Personally, thought the mechanics of Kult - Divinity Lost were a massive step up from the blandness of the previous 'Roll under D20’ mechanics of earlier editions, although some people seem to have a big aversion to any game associated with Apocalypse World which the new system was based on. I’m not sure what the arguments were against it, but all people interested in Kult ought to listen to Matthew Dawkin’s The Summit live play audio found on the Red Moon Roleplaying. The system is clearly unobtrusive and, for me, works well in the horror genre because of this. There could have been a reaction to Kult not including the ‘Mental Balance’ score as they used to, which I found jarring at first as it was something of a central mechanic in previous editions. However, I find the system to be strong at running horror, per se - so I’m not sure where people are coming from, honestly.

    In the case of V5, the system is it’s own beast in some respects. Obviously it is based on the Storyteller games of old, but it’s very specifically designed to play in the way it sets out to do, rather than be an adaptation of another system.

    I think there was plans to translate a bunch of other Aquelarre games, furthering the timeline and so on, but it took them three years to complete the Kickstarter campaign, so it may take a while! It’s an awesome corebook though, and the magical elements are very evocative.
    Last edited by Trippy; 01-05-2020, 10:07 PM.

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  • Justycar
    replied
    Aquelarre is a great game, I hope you enjoyed. The only local game that have achieved international impact, for the moment. The author. Ricard Ibañez, had published recently other title about the conquest of America. About Kult, I identify two more problems for the sells, added to the crudity of the art and the censure. First, the mechanics do not perform well in a horror game, or so is said by most of reviews. And more important, there are two editorials to publish and translate all the foreign games. Nosolorol published Kult after many crowdfoundings of Vampire, Mage and Changeling. They are suffering to put an end V20 th anniversary line of supplements. May be, and this is a personal speculation, our market is saturated of crowdfoundings. Fortunately, V5 is performing very well. Even though as a result to the problems with Camarilla handbook, the books was published only one month ago and Anarch this week. It could be possible that Chicago by Night or The Fall of London awaits 2 or 3 years to being translated and republished, to most of the costumers the language is a barrier.

    But I hope, the same way that France by night is a wonderful piece of art and background, a love letter to Dark ages, that more licensed supplement could be published. I know that Modiphius CEO revealed in an interview the possibility of a Rome by Night and a Paris by Night for V5 a few month ago. A Madrid or Barcelona by Night would be cool setting for the unexplored Europe in Masquerade. But my best wishes are under a Dark ages Granada by Night, playing the fall of Al andalus and the Omeyas.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Justycar View Post
    In Spain, Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition is distributed by Nosorol by the traditional way (without crowdfoundings). In fact, V5 coexist now in the same stores with V20, WW20, M20... The 20th anniversary editions were crowdfounded and begun being published in 2014, the editorial is still struggling to finish the former line of supplements while publishing the new V5 books. The advantage is, after the crowdfounding, the 20th books are distributed traditionally to he stores and supplied regularly. So anyone could purchase any supplement published years ago. In the sales area, some blogs and webs maintain registers and estimations based in the information that the store provide. Vampire 5th edition it is only behind D&D 5h and Call of Ctulhu. The three games form the trinity of the most played. Kult was published in spanish the last year, but it seems that not perform very well. Was more a product for nostalgic collectors than for players.
    That’s interesting. I think the ICV2 sales are worldwide, but there are local differences or sure. I’m actually a big fan of Kult too, but I would say that you may possibly have some very, very controversial images in the core rules for Spanish version because they couldn’t be sold to minors.The US translation actually censured them out, but I wouldn’t let anybody under the age of 18 buy Kult regardless to be honest. This would mean that they’d have limited sales - but I regard Kult: Divinity lost as a work of art, rather than a commercial release. Vampire has to carefully straddle the line of wanting to be artistic too, but also be able to sell in significant numbers.

    Also, seeing as we are on to Spanish roleplaying, I also have the translation of Aquelarre - which is awesome too!

    Leave a comment:


  • Justycar
    replied
    In Spain, Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition is distributed by Nosorol by the traditional way (without crowdfoundings). In fact, V5 coexist now in the same stores with V20, WW20, M20... The 20th anniversary editions were crowdfounded and begun being published in 2014, the editorial is still struggling to finish the former line of supplements while publishing the new V5 books. The advantage is, after the crowdfounding, the 20th books are distributed traditionally to he stores and supplied regularly. So anyone could purchase any supplement published years ago. In the sales area, some blogs and webs maintain registers and estimations based in the information that the store provide. Vampire 5th edition it is only behind D&D 5h and Call of Ctulhu. The three games form the trinity of the most played. Kult was published in spanish the last year, but it seems that not perform very well. Was more a product for nostalgic collectors than for players.

    Leave a comment:


  • IanWatson
    replied
    Clarification on timing because I see a lot of erroneous information getting tossed around:

    The original World of Darkness was published from 1991-2004.
    • 2004: What fans called the "new World of Darkness" (now the Chronicles of Darkness) began publication.
    • 2006: CCP purchases White Wolf
    • 2009-2010: CCP/White Wolf stops traditional publication of the CofD game lines and Exalted, switching to a PDF/print-on-demand model. Since it's no longer on store shelves, it drops of ICv2 listings.
    • 2011: V20 is published, bringing back the original World of Darkness. CCP opts to stop tabletop publication entirely for various reasons. WW Creative Director Rich Thomas decides to start Onyx Path Publishing with the license to continue publication of WW products.
    • 2012-2017: Onyx Path continues the PDF/PoD model, with the exception of limited deluxe/prestige print runs via Kickstarter, so products still aren't in traditional distribution, and thus off ICv2 lists, although we do very well on DriveThruRPG.
    • 2015: CCP sells the White Wolf IP to Paradox. Onyx Path continues to license the IP from Paradox for publication.
    • 2017: Onyx Path starts to its Kickstarter model: projects are funded not just for a deluxe edition, but for a print run to get into traditional distribution. I believe Pugmire is the first of these products, followed by Scion 2nd Edition, Prince's Gambit, Monarchies of Mau, Cavaliers of Mars, Changeling: The Lost 2nd Edition, Trinity Continuum, Scarred Lands, and more to come. Some products start to appear on ICv2 ranks.
    • 2018: With the assistance of Modiphius, Paradox releases the new Vampire 5e and its first supplements into traditional distribution, jumping the World of Darkness back into the ICv2 ranks.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Trippy View Post

    Pretty much. The main thing to note is distribution channels. Vampire is getting out there, basically. The overtaking of Star Wars is surprising, but maybe the pull of the IP is declining slightly with the last movie out (and not much new product coming for the RPG). Vampire hasn’t actually had any new supplements during this quarter, but I think it’s appeal is being sustained anyway.
    Vampire 5th Edition got a major push via Geek and Sundry. That was a genius bit of marketing on Jason Carl's part. He took advantage of Twitch (and now Penny Arcade) to sell to the Matt Mercer crowd.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Ostarion View Post
    Alright, the next ICv2 chart is available. And here it is.
    1 Dungeons & Dragons WotC
    2 Pathfinder 2e Paizo
    3 Shadowrun 6e Catalyst Game Labs
    4 Vampire 5th Edition White Wolf/Modiphius
    5 Star Wars Fantasy Flight
    So, the big release of Pathfinder was added to the chart with the release of the 2e similar to when L5R came out, however it will probably have better longevity due to historical reasons. Shadow also released its 6th edition during this period. I am not aware of the reviews or acceptance of this although i know it is a cyberpunk style of game with more fantastical elements. Vampire 5th edition maintains its position despite not releasing any new modules and books during this period and beating out Star Wars as well, which has fallen to the 5th position. I imagine that if Vampire continues to chart, it will have proven its longevity for over the year period in which it is being tracked. Am I correct in this assessment?
    Pretty much. The main thing to note is distribution channels. Vampire is getting out there, basically. The overtaking of Star Wars is surprising, but maybe the pull of the IP is declining slightly with the last movie out (and not much new product coming for the RPG). Vampire hasn’t actually had any new supplements during this quarter, but I think it’s appeal is being sustained anyway.

    Shadowrun 6th edition got mixed reviews, with some heated online discussion, which isn’t dissimilar to V5s release. However, I think in both cases, the number of impassioned fans is probably greater than with other games - and the expressions of anger and disappointment more readily given.

    I wonder if Shadowrun 6E slips a little after it’s initial run that we might see some competition from the upcoming Cyberpunk Red. If V5 can get some more supplements out and garner some community growth, it may get into the Top 3 next time round.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ostarion
    replied
    Alright, the next ICv2 chart is available. And here it is.
    1 Dungeons & Dragons WotC
    2 Pathfinder 2e Paizo
    3 Shadowrun 6e Catalyst Game Labs
    4 Vampire 5th Edition White Wolf/Modiphius
    5 Star Wars Fantasy Flight
    So, the big release of Pathfinder was added to the chart with the release of the 2e similar to when L5R came out, however it will probably have better longevity due to historical reasons. Shadow also released its 6th edition during this period. I am not aware of the reviews or acceptance of this although i know it is a cyberpunk style of game with more fantastical elements. Vampire 5th edition maintains its position despite not releasing any new modules and books during this period and beating out Star Wars as well, which has fallen to the 5th position. I imagine that if Vampire continues to chart, it will have proven its longevity for over the year period in which it is being tracked. Am I correct in this assessment?

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Ostarion View Post


    Well, we can now answer this question with the recent ICv2 rankings. It appears the L5R fell off completely which means that all other positions maintained their sales longevity, including V5

    Here is the chart for reference.
    1 Dungeons & Dragons WotC
    2 Starfinder Paizo
    3 Star Wars Fantasy Flight
    4 Vampire 5th Edition White Wolf/Modiphius
    5 Pathfinder Paizo
    My understanding is that this chart is based on retail sales and includes supplements and related accessories. Since V5 is so light in terms of supplements, I imagine that most of those sales are to new customers compared to the other charted games listed here. Am I correct in this assessment?
    Pathfinder's market is basically a subset of D&D, insofar that many Pathfinder players actually refer to their own games as playing D&D and it's basically an alternative form of D&D. Star Wars benefits from also being a household name as well as having strong distribution from FFG. Vampire's succes is that it has it's own established fanbase which is an alternative to D&D. The Vampire fanbase, by reputation at least, has a higher proportion of female gamers for example and people who like Vampire don't necessarily come into the hobby via D&D in the same way most other games do.

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  • Ostarion
    replied
    Originally posted by PMárk View Post

    I think the most important factors were mentioned. Pathfinder is absent, due to 2e. L5R and V5 was lifted by nostalgia and new edition enthusiasm/curiosity and other factors in the case of L5R.

    I think, in the case of V5 (L5R too, but that isn't a concern here), the bigger question is that would it maintain at least this position, or would it drop off, as the above wears off? Shadowrun and CoC tend to be among the top five, but neither one is there, but two new editions are. It'd be rather interesting to see what happens?

    Well, we can now answer this question with the recent ICv2 rankings. It appears the L5R fell off completely which means that all other positions maintained their sales longevity, including V5

    Here is the chart for reference.
    1 Dungeons & Dragons WotC
    2 Starfinder Paizo
    3 Star Wars Fantasy Flight
    4 Vampire 5th Edition White Wolf/Modiphius
    5 Pathfinder Paizo
    My understanding is that this chart is based on retail sales and includes supplements and related accessories. Since V5 is so light in terms of supplements, I imagine that most of those sales are to new customers compared to the other charted games listed here. Am I correct in this assessment?

    Leave a comment:


  • PMárk
    replied
    Originally posted by Ostarion View Post

    Its a bit off topic, but considering that Vampire appears in this chart, I wonder if their are factors or anomalies not being considered? Legend of the Five Rings seems to be quite a surprise.
    I think the most important factors were mentioned. Pathfinder is absent, due to 2e. L5R and V5 was lifted by nostalgia and new edition enthusiasm/curiosity and other factors in the case of L5R.

    I think, in the case of V5 (L5R too, but that isn't a concern here), the bigger question is that would it maintain at least this position, or would it drop off, as the above wears off? Shadowrun and CoC tend to be among the top five, but neither one is there, but two new editions are. It'd be rather interesting to see what happens?

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    A relatively minor factual correction:

    The World of Darkness (also the CofD not the classic WoD from last quarter 2004 until 2009, which is part of why it is just WoD instead of Vampire or whatever) drops off of the ICv2 top list after 2009, because that's when CCP actively began the process of ending their involvement in producing TT RPGs and similar products. The CCP merger happened in 2006. In 2010 CCP essentially pulled the plug on TT RPGs (CofD, Exalted, etc.) and only books that were already in the development queue came out until Onyx Path was formed in late 2011, and didn't publicly take over the licenses until GenCon 2012; at which point Onyx Path's business model ensured it wouldn't make it on the ICv2 lists.

    Basically the WoD/CofD ouput in 2010 and 2011 was something like 25% of 2009... which is the biggest reason it dropped off even before the switch over to Onyx Path.

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  • DaemonChrno
    replied
    I think that L5R greatly profited from the relative success of the new LCG and all the other board games that were published. The open beta and the revamp of the story/lore also helped a lot probably.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trippy
    replied
    Originally posted by Ostarion View Post
    Thank you for your time in answering. One other thing about the recent chart that you posted earlier is that Legend of the Five Rings doesn't seem to have ever charted before in all previous editions. Even with the support of FGG how did a chanbara fantasy get so high on the list considering its niche genre? Usually its european fantasy, science fiction, horror and super heroes.

    Its a bit off topic, but considering that Vampire appears in this chart, I wonder if their are factors or anomalies not being considered? Legend of the Five Rings seems to be quite a surprise.
    Yes, I think Legends seems to be inordinately successful, but it does have a following too, and FFG has a lot of distribution channels due to their board games and high profile IPs ( like Star Wars, etc). They probably just get into more shops than other games do.

    Leave a comment:

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