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  • crazy ideas about Baali, Beckoning,Lambach and so on

    Some final crazy ideas that I had after re-reading the Prospero's chapter of BJD.

    1) There are some recurring themes with the Baali, and now that they have a new founder.

    V20 made it clear that we should stop looking for a single founder but we should focus on the Wells. That's the point. The Baali have been founded several times, and the history of each founder mixed up with the previous.

    Nergal doesn't give us much problem, same for Moloch.
    About the Unnamed baali it was said to us that "Others claim it was in fact a pair of lovers merged together at the organ pit, thus explaining the presence of hermaphroditic deities in various ancient societies. Yet others claim it was a beautiful slave boy rescued by the Cainite and brought back to the Second City."

    The slave boy brought back to the Second City is Ur-Shulgi, BJD made the point clear. His story is the perfect match of the story of Baal the Destroyer as told us in many source.

    But maybe the Baali never had just three founders (or actually three vampires who led them in one or more stage of their history), but four of them: Ur-Shulgi, Nergal, Moloch and some one who was a bit hermaphroditic.

    Which could easily be Yorak, who was a she at the time of his embrace and then become male, the greatest Koldun of all time who learnt sorcery at Kupala's feet, and whose Cathedral closely resemble the horrors of the Wells (the same Cathedralthat was later claimed by a Ansen, who was a Baali).

    It always seemed odd that Samiel got so angry with the Eldest (why kill him if he was not related somehow to the Baali? Why didn't Saulot stopped him?) and there is one more hint: the fact that Saulot might had a role in the work of Zelios the Mason, whocreated a magical trap system using the Ley Lines to bind Kupala. It's very strange that Saulot gave all this attention to Transylvania and to the Eldest.

    And now, with Mah-ri-who-is-also-Michael we have again a 4th gen Baali who is neither male or female.

    From BJD
    Vykos: She was not destroyed.
    Beckett: What they said. I saw her. We both saw her. We saw...
    both of them.

    Prospero: Both? Oh... no.
    Vykos: He lives in her. Michael lives in her. And they seem to
    have come to something of an accord. They are two faces of the
    incarnation of divinity Michael has always sought — Ahura Mazda
    and Ahriman in the union of accursed flesh and transcendent spirit.
    And they want — they desire more than anything — to make whole
    their...balance.
    Which means that at the current times we have three 4th Gen Baali running amok: Nergal under Mexico City, Ur-Shulgi in Alamut and Mary the Black in Costantinople.*



    *By the way the history of Mary and Michael is becoming quite similar to the one of Troile and Moloch, and I doubt this is a coincidence.


    I came to wonder if in this passage Prospero is talking of something more than what is happening in Costantinople.

    Prospero:
    Because if Ahura and Angra are one being, there must be
    two others to craft the balance of a trinity — Amesha Spenta and
    Azhi Dahaka. And of those two, only one was a serpent. A dragon.
    Was there a pit already?

    Beckett: There might have been. Michael’s old haven — the echo of
    the Hagia Sophia, under the city — parts of it are still there.
    That’s where I found them. They were —
    Vykos: — they were making sacrifice when we arrived. It...may well
    be the beginnings of a Well of Sacrifice, if one not wholly...
    sanctified yet.

    I really suspect he is talking about something else. A double meaning very related to the direction V20 gave to the setting.


    Because it is not true that V20 is "agnostic" when it comes to Metaplot. V20 made a HUGE focus towards the Baali and putting them in every free inch of the meta-plot. They never had such focus in the Masquerade, and only in Dark Ages they were so central.

    But V20 is supporating with Baali,infernalism and Baali plots : Izhim involvment with the Sabbat, the Hand and Namtaru; the Order of Moloch; the old background of Ur-Shulgi re-established with more strenght; the chapters about Carthage and it's well in BJD,and the one about Costantinople; Demetrius and Saulot splitting their souls with Thauma; the big focus on infernalism in V20 Red List (Dylan Bruce, Valerius Maior, Petaniqua, and now even Francisca Santos, 4 spot out 10 are about infernalism),



    One could wonder if the Beckoning in V5 is really made by the Antes or if it's the First Well calling back home the damned.

    Because...since when the Antes are in the Middle East?
    Tzimisce was in New York, Nosferatu sleeps in the deept in the Ocean, Toreador is in Crethe, Brujah lies dormant in Carthage, Ennoia in underground in North America, Cappa is on the other side, Saulot is at Hundeoduara or Vienna or both; Ravnos is gone; Malkav might be in the East, or might be in the ether, Ventrue too might be there (but why? Ventrue went west to embrace Alexander, Antonius and Erik; he didn't stayed in the middle east).

    So who is calling?


    Guide to the Tal'Mahe'ra put quite the effort about explaining how there is something scary in those lands, how the Well is still active and something worse than hell is coming out of it.


    That's the why of the Order of Moloc, that's why an old Baali like Prospero repented and went begging for help from the Tal'Mahe'Ra.

    From the Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra.


    The breaking point came when
    a pack of the Order’s
    hunters tracked an infernalist and his blood-bound cult
    into the wilds of the Near East, and found a horror beyond
    imagination.
    Only one member of the pack survived long
    enough to bring word back to her superiors before succumbing
    to the madness of her Beast. In her remaining lucid
    moments, she revealed that the impossiblyancient ruins of
    the First Tribe’s city had been found, and something malevolent
    and powerful beyond human comprehension was
    gestating within its revitalized Well of Sacrifice
    . Believing his
    hunter’s report, the Order’s commander put his affairs in
    order and took the risk of contacting the Tal’Mahe’Ra, the
    only Cainite organization he believed capable of taking the
    threat seriously and, perhaps, being willing to listen to him.
    The Order and the Tal’Mahe’Ra have since made common
    cause. Sahar-Hanibaal has been granted the courtesy rank of
    dominion, fitting to his age, personal power, and mastery
    of the Order, and he resides in Enoch as an adviser to the
    Del’Roh and the Wazir council.


    Brought before the Wazir and the Del’Roh in thaumaturgically
    forged bonds that compelled him to speak no
    falsehood, Sahar-Hanibaal told him why he had sought
    them out: he felt he had no other choice, and the danger
    had grown too great to refrain from seeking outside assistance.
    He spoke of ancient lost city — not Qal’at Sherqat
    ,
    the city mortals called Ashur, but the true city, the fallen
    city, the home of the First Tribe from which the Baali had
    sprung, lost no longer. He spoke of the first great Well of
    Sacrifice, the Maw of the Sleepers, lost for ten thousand
    years if not longer, and how it should have fallen into
    dust and silence without blood and flesh and pain to
    sustain it. When it was found in the cradle of the high
    mountains, it was neither dust nor silence, but thrumming
    with a hideous dark power that rivaled that of Knossos
    and Chorazin, with something pulsing within it, changing,
    becoming.
    He spoke of the lone survivor of his Order who
    escaped what surged forth to pursue them — escaped, but
    not unmarked, not intact, not sane. She begged for the
    peace of Final Death, and he could not be certain that
    he had truly granted it even as she crumbled to ash in the
    sunrise, bound in the scriptures of Earth and Heaven to
    see her soul set pure and free.
    He told them of the Order of Moloch and their own
    centuries-long hunt to rid the world of the infernal taint
    unleashed on it by his own foolish kin. These kin had called
    on half-known names and half-understood pacts, and sold
    what they should not for the sake of their own venality. He
    cursed those same fools who stirred the sleeping Children
    of the Outer Dark in their prisons and pushed everything
    closer to the edge of dissolution in their stupidity. Finally,
    he begged for their help in finding what was left of Ashur
    again, and its Well, before what gestated within it could
    be birthed into a world ill-prepared to meet it.
    He offered
    himself and the services of his Order to their own struggles,
    in the hope of preventing a calamity beyond imagination

    It can't be a coincidence that every elder vampire is running into the region where the Well is.


    The First Well, the Great Well of Ashur the
    Fallen, has been the unholy grail of the Baali since the bloodline’s diaspora. Any living memory of the
    city’s physical location was lost with Nergal and Moloch, though many believe it lays in the high plateaus
    of Anatolia or the highlands of what is now northern Iraq.

    So maybe the Well is the source of the Beckoning or maybe the Antes are summoning armies to deal with the Well, and the Third Baali war has started without anyone taking notice.



    2) The second crazy idea, closely related to the first, is that Izhim Ur Baal is really a thrice-damned-son-of-a-bitch.

    We know that he pledged fealty to Namtaru, and that he infiltrated the Tal'Mahe'Ra. He is the one who keeps Prospero's leash. He was "coveniently" absent when Enoch got nuked. He is the one who marched inside Chorazin and broke the curse upon the anti-tribu. I think that the setting is working into making Izhim one of its main antagonist.

    Now...with the blood of a 5th gen Methuselah the Baal were capable of cursing the entire Assamite Clan...what could they do if the got their hands on the Aralu? If the Aralu are really 3d gen or 2nd gen vampires, they could use them as a conduit to curse or manipulate every vampire thanks to the Principle of Sympathy and the Principle of Blood.
    As of V5 the Tal'Mahe'Ra ( who was deeply anti-infernalist and pro-Antes) got Nuked (Lucky Izhim who was not there!).
    The Sabbat who also is very anti-infernalist, was infiltrated to the top by the Baali (Melinda Galbraith was an agent of Nergal and the First Seraphim was Izhim) and now the whole "let's go crusading into the middle east" faction rose took control of the Sword of Caine. Lucky Polonia! I bet that the sleeping Nergal under Mexico City had nothing to do with this course of events.

    The Inconnu, where Good guy Saulot is, are sieged by the Master of Ravens, who is spreading a strange religion among the Camarilla. Vienna, where Bad Guy Saulot, and the most powerful Vampire sorcerers of the world were, got nuked. The Assamites, oldest and fiercest enemies of the Baali, are now under the gentle tutelage of Ur-Shulgi.

    Even Ravana, the childe of Ravnos who sold his soul to the demons and probably became the Yama King Ravana, has risen recently.

    For a Baali return, it's quite a good scenario.


    3) Last idea, unrelated to the Baali thing.

    I think that a easy way to explain the identity of Lambach would be assuming that he is 4th gen Tzimisce.
    And a 5th Gen Tzimisce.
    Maybe even a 6th gen Tzimisce.
    All in one.

    4th Gen tzimisces had the bad habit of leaving behind individual identity and the need for bodies. Byelobog was one with the Pripjat marches, the snow in those lands were just flakes of his skin, the whole land was his body. Yorak was one with the Cathedral; Demendeh became a virus. The Eldest himself lives in every Tzimisce (plus the whole Old-Clan-Tzimisce party propaganda "I'm ONE WITH THE LAND").
    Now...what if the first Lord Ruthven had a lesser version of the Eldest power? What if the first Ruthven just became The Ruthvens? If Demendeh could evolve into a virus, if the Eldest can live in every carrier of his blood...then why Ruthven could have not become a "family"? It would not be the strangest thing we heard about the Tzimisce. (The Dragon at some point became pregnant with the Eldest, and after some time he was swallowed whole by the Eldest who had posessed the Body of Iliyas and then jizzed a sperm-Dragon inside Vykos. What a trip!).

    That would explain why Dracula thinks that his maker is prisoner in a castle, while Lambach was in New York for years (and that would explain how Lambach teleported from New York to the Caymans in mere moments). Lord Ruthven was chosen because he was a "true survivor". Maybe he decided to survive through his blood, just like the Eldest. So Lambach, and Lord Ruthven, and who knows how many Ruthvens, live through the whole Ruthvens bloodline, and can "take possession" and "move through" their entire line.





    Final note: Isn't funny that Lambach and Izhim had quite the similar story?

    A 5th gen Methuselah as old as dirt (Lambach/Izhim) whose blood was used as a the main focus (one by Dark Thauma, the other by Koldun) by mages who were manipulated by demons (Velya manipulated by Kupala, and the Decani by...well by themeselves) to affect a whole blood line in one stroke (Curse the assamite-break the tzimisce blood bonds with the elders) and then joined the Sabbat? (Plus minor things like having a role in the killing of an Antideluvian, but who cares).
    They could share quite the tales while drinking!
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 03-16-2019, 11:21 PM.

  • #2
    On the one hand it is interesting to think the latest Gehenna cycle is the same thing as the latest Baali war. On the other, I am skeptical that there is that much hidden planning ticking along on the part of the writers. Lastly, even if there is that much planning going on, how much does it matter to the average game or PC?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post
      On the one hand it is interesting to think the latest Gehenna cycle is the same thing as the latest Baali war. On the other, I am skeptical that there is that much hidden planning ticking along on the part of the writers.
      I agree. There are too many writers to expect a big plan.
      Which personally I think is for the better. A single explanation it's bound to disappoint a big chunck of fans, so it's better having some vague ideas thrown out there in a big melting pot to take inspiration from.
      Lastly, even if there is that much planning going on, how much does it matter to the average game or PC?
      It doesn't. But that's not the point of the metaplot. The point of the metaplot is to have fun reading it, trying to make a head canon with all the pieces, and especially have fun discussions with other members of the fandom about it.
      It's fun outside of the table, and still a part of the hobby in a way.

      Undead rabbit I had fun reading the post
      There was a hint somewhere, I don't remember where, that the beckoning might be caused by a 2nd generation vampire


      101 simple plot ideas for VtM

      "Ever since the Followers of Set rebranded themselves as The Ministry, I can barely keep a straight face around them." - Ramona #vamily

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
        The point of the metaplot is to have fun reading it, trying to make a head canon with all the pieces, and especially have fun discussions with other members of the fandom about it.
        There's one major problem with that though - most 'players'* who are into this level of metaplot are far to obsessive about it and proceed to righteously attempt to enforce their version on others via forums and other online discussions. Keeping a metaplot discussion 'fun'** is almost impossible.


        *I say players but they're often not interested in playing and more interested in metagaming
        ** By fun I mean fun for everyone not just the people screaming their obsessions at each other

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        • #5
          @Undead rabbit
          Do you propose that Prospero is Tanitbaal-Sahar (Founder of the Road of Sin, Childe of Tanit) or Sahar-Hannibaal (his Childe, the Order of Moloch's Dominion)?

          I think there has been some confusion about it on this and also on the other thread, since their names are so similar. I understood you meant Tanitbaal-Sahar is Prospero, while his Childer is in Enoch - which I agree.

          Good thread, btw! Thanks!

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          • #6
            Good post but i think you are giving the writers way too much credit. No way all those different writers planned this in advance. They are pretty much making this stuff up as they go along. There is no masterplan here.

            Comment


            • #7
              Just what someone who knew about the masterplan and was trying to get us off it's scent would say!

              Comment


              • #9
                Originally posted by Dogstar View Post

                There's one major problem with that though - most 'players'* who are into this level of metaplot are far to obsessive about it and proceed to righteously attempt to enforce their version on others via forums and other online discussions. Keeping a metaplot discussion 'fun'** is almost impossible.


                *I say players but they're often not interested in playing and more interested in metagaming
                ** By fun I mean fun for everyone not just the people screaming their obsessions at each other
                I like to think we will be able to outgrow such bad internet tendecies eventually


                101 simple plot ideas for VtM

                "Ever since the Followers of Set rebranded themselves as The Ministry, I can barely keep a straight face around them." - Ramona #vamily

                Comment


                • #10
                  Since we're talking about conspiracy theories.

                  The Baali Cycle has always seemed to me to be a process of internal sterialization needing to feed the clan with vampires from outside to have their numerical exploits. It never seemed to me that the Baali Wars were only by infernalism, and even that re-embrace was an unusual practice.

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    My favorite thing about Ur-Shulgi is how he's so conspicuously evil that he takes all the suspicion off of his sire, Haqim, who was last seen turning himself into blood and POURING HIMSELF DOWN A WELL right there in Alamut.

                    The Baali just accumulated so many concepts and origin stories over the course of Vampire's many editions that they serendipitously became the good kind of train wreck, the kind where some really clever writing can come from later attempts to make a grand unified theory where every story can be true at the same time somehow. It's one of the things that I've come to love about them.
                    Last edited by Reasor; 04-20-2019, 02:39 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
                      Some final crazy ideas that I had after re-reading the Prospero's chapter of BJD.

                      1) There are some recurring themes with the Baali, and now that they have a new founder.

                      V20 made it clear that we should stop looking for a single founder but we should focus on the Wells. That's the point. The Baali have been founded several times, and the history of each founder mixed up with the previous.

                      Nergal doesn't give us much problem, same for Moloch.
                      About the Unnamed baali it was said to us that "Others claim it was in fact a pair of lovers merged together at the organ pit, thus explaining the presence of hermaphroditic deities in various ancient societies. Yet others claim it was a beautiful slave boy rescued by the Cainite and brought back to the Second City."

                      The slave boy brought back to the Second City is Ur-Shulgi, BJD made the point clear. His story is the perfect match of the story of Baal the Destroyer as told us in many source.

                      But maybe the Baali never had just three founders (or actually three vampires who led them in one or more stage of their history), but four of them: Ur-Shulgi, Nergal, Moloch and some one who was a bit hermaphroditic.

                      Which could easily be Yorak, who was a she at the time of his embrace and then become male, the greatest Koldun of all time who learnt sorcery at Kupala's feet, and whose Cathedral closely resemble the horrors of the Wells (the same Cathedralthat was later claimed by a Ansen, who was a Baali).

                      It always seemed odd that Samiel got so angry with the Eldest (why kill him if he was not related somehow to the Baali? Why didn't Saulot stopped him?) and there is one more hint: the fact that Saulot might had a role in the work of Zelios the Mason, whocreated a magical trap system using the Ley Lines to bind Kupala. It's very strange that Saulot gave all this attention to Transylvania and to the Eldest.

                      And now, with Mah-ri-who-is-also-Michael we have again a 4th gen Baali who is neither male or female.

                      From BJD


                      Which means that at the current times we have three 4th Gen Baali running amok: Nergal under Mexico City, Ur-Shulgi in Alamut and Mary the Black in Costantinople.*



                      *By the way the history of Mary and Michael is becoming quite similar to the one of Troile and Moloch, and I doubt this is a coincidence.


                      I came to wonder if in this passage Prospero is talking of something more than what is happening in Costantinople.




                      I really suspect he is talking about something else. A double meaning very related to the direction V20 gave to the setting.


                      Because it is not true that V20 is "agnostic" when it comes to Metaplot. V20 made a HUGE focus towards the Baali and putting them in every free inch of the meta-plot. They never had such focus in the Masquerade, and only in Dark Ages they were so central.

                      But V20 is supporating with Baali,infernalism and Baali plots : Izhim involvment with the Sabbat, the Hand and Namtaru; the Order of Moloch; the old background of Ur-Shulgi re-established with more strenght; the chapters about Carthage and it's well in BJD,and the one about Costantinople; Demetrius and Saulot splitting their souls with Thauma; the big focus on infernalism in V20 Red List (Dylan Bruce, Valerius Maior, Petaniqua, and now even Francisca Santos, 4 spot out 10 are about infernalism),



                      One could wonder if the Beckoning in V5 is really made by the Antes or if it's the First Well calling back home the damned.

                      Because...since when the Antes are in the Middle East?
                      Tzimisce was in New York, Nosferatu sleeps in the deept in the Ocean, Toreador is in Crethe, Brujah lies dormant in Carthage, Ennoia in underground in North America, Cappa is on the other side, Saulot is at Hundeoduara or Vienna or both; Ravnos is gone; Malkav might be in the East, or might be in the ether, Ventrue too might be there (but why? Ventrue went west to embrace Alexander, Antonius and Erik; he didn't stayed in the middle east).

                      So who is calling?


                      Guide to the Tal'Mahe'ra put quite the effort about explaining how there is something scary in those lands, how the Well is still active and something worse than hell is coming out of it.


                      That's the why of the Order of Moloc, that's why an old Baali like Prospero repented and went begging for help from the Tal'Mahe'Ra.

                      From the Guide to the Tal'Mahe'Ra.









                      It can't be a coincidence that every elder vampire is running into the region where the Well is.





                      So maybe the Well is the source of the Beckoning or maybe the Antes are summoning armies to deal with the Well, and the Third Baali war has started without anyone taking notice.



                      2) The second crazy idea, closely related to the first, is that Izhim Ur Baal is really a thrice-damned-son-of-a-bitch.

                      We know that he pledged fealty to Namtaru, and that he infiltrated the Tal'Mahe'Ra. He is the one who keeps Prospero's leash. He was "coveniently" absent when Enoch got nuked. He is the one who marched inside Chorazin and broke the curse upon the anti-tribu. I think that the setting is working into making Izhim one of its main antagonist.

                      Now...with the blood of a 5th gen Methuselah the Baal were capable of cursing the entire Assamite Clan...what could they do if the got their hands on the Aralu? If the Aralu are really 3d gen or 2nd gen vampires, they could use them as a conduit to curse or manipulate every vampire thanks to the Principle of Sympathy and the Principle of Blood.
                      As of V5 the Tal'Mahe'Ra ( who was deeply anti-infernalist and pro-Antes) got Nuked (Lucky Izhim who was not there!).
                      The Sabbat who also is very anti-infernalist, was infiltrated to the top by the Baali (Melinda Galbraith was an agent of Nergal and the First Seraphim was Izhim) and now the whole "let's go crusading into the middle east" faction rose took control of the Sword of Caine. Lucky Polonia! I bet that the sleeping Nergal under Mexico City had nothing to do with this course of events.

                      The Inconnu, where Good guy Saulot is, are sieged by the Master of Ravens, who is spreading a strange religion among the Camarilla. Vienna, where Bad Guy Saulot, and the most powerful Vampire sorcerers of the world were, got nuked. The Assamites, oldest and fiercest enemies of the Baali, are now under the gentle tutelage of Ur-Shulgi.

                      Even Ravana, the childe of Ravnos who sold his soul to the demons and probably became the Yama King Ravana, has risen recently.

                      For a Baali return, it's quite a good scenario.
                      Thats some really interesting theories there. Lots of good work!

                      Mary the Back became one of the Decani though, an aspect of Namtaru I think. I always assumed she was off the board. Or more accurately moved to a different and larger board.

                      And... Moloch and Troile sank into torpor in each others arms at Carthage. I always took the descriptions of Troiles final nights with Moloch to mean that Troile was on the edge of wassail and Moloch was trying to recruit her. Make her Baali, put her on the path of the Hive... but the Ventrue interrupted that. But Moloch was much higher on his path and should come out of torpor faster than Troile. So in a hunger frenzy and entwined with another Cainite... Moloch might end up diablerizing an Antediluvian almost accidentally.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                        But Moloch was much higher on his path and should come out of torpor faster than Troile. So in a hunger frenzy and entwined with another Cainite... Moloch might end up diablerizing an Antediluvian almost accidentally.
                        I thought that the whole purpose of salting the earth was to stop them rising, even if they get out of Torpor!

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

                          Thats some really interesting theories there. Lots of good work!

                          Mary the Back became one of the Decani though, an aspect of Namtaru I think. I always assumed she was off the board. Or more accurately moved to a different and larger board.

                          And... Moloch and Troile sank into torpor in each others arms at Carthage. I always took the descriptions of Troiles final nights with Moloch to mean that Troile was on the edge of wassail and Moloch was trying to recruit her. Make her Baali, put her on the path of the Hive... but the Ventrue interrupted that. But Moloch was much higher on his path and should come out of torpor faster than Troile. So in a hunger frenzy and entwined with another Cainite... Moloch might end up diablerizing an Antediluvian almost accidentally.

                          V20 retcons Mary becoming one of the Decani. She now shares her body with Michael's soul, similar to what happened to Monty Coven and Mithras.

                          Comment


                          • #15
                            Now, that's not a crazy theory at all.

                            Sincerely,

                            The person who wrote all that quoted text in the first place.


                            Wyrd Sister
                            Freelance Penmonkey For Hire
                            Moloch's PR Chick

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